Episode · Jun 26, 2026 · 1 hr 31 min
He Fought for a World Title with Lyme Disease
with Mike Lee
Mike Lee is a former professional boxer who fought for a world title while struggling with Lyme disease and autoimmune illness.
“I had this sense of relief where you don't have to do this anymore.”
Summary
Mike Lee tells Ken Rideout how boxing became part of his life in Chicago, from Notre Dame’s Bengal Bouts and the Golden Gloves to Top Rank and big cards at Madison Square Garden and Cowboys Stadium. He says his father’s expectations drove him to keep fighting, even after breaking a rib during a world-title bout. While preparing for Caleb Plant, Lee was cutting weight and managing severe pain, but later admitted relief when his only professional loss ended the pressure to keep going.
Lee describes years of fatigue, inflammation, and back pain that doctors first treated as ankylosing spondylitis before he was diagnosed with Lyme disease and mast cell activation syndrome. After trying multiple medications, he shifted toward functional medicine and started Soul CBD with his sister, later adding the Out of Office THC line. He and Ken discuss life after boxing, pain relief, health choices, and building work beyond the ring.
Show notes
He graduated from Notre Dame, signed with Top Rank, fought at Madison Square Garden and Cowboys Stadium, starred in national Subway commercials, and earned a shot at a world title.
What almost nobody saw was what was happening behind the scenes.
For years Mike battled chronic pain, autoimmune disease, misdiagnoses, and Lyme disease while trying to keep his career alive. He fought through broken ribs, endless medications, and training camps where his body was telling him to stop long before his mind would listen.
In this conversation, Mike opens up about growing up in Chicago, the pressure to make his father proud, becoming one of boxing’s top contenders, the relief that came after his only professional loss, finding purpose beyond the ring, and why he now believes health is the greatest fight of all.
This is a conversation about identity, resilience, and knowing when enough is enough.
Transcript
Made from YouTube's automatic captions and lightly corrected, so a few words and names may be off. Click a time to play the video from there.
Ken Rideout
All right, today's very special guest, my friend and former middleweight or super middleweight.
Mike Lee
Super middleweight and light heavyweight.
Ken Rideout
Super middleweight and light heavyweight champion of the world and Notre Dame graduate, the great Mikey Lee. Mike, thanks for being here.
Mike Lee
It's great to see you. Yeah.
Ken Rideout
What was your ring nickname?
Mike Lee
I never had one. It's funny. Right when I turned pro with with Top Rank, people were trying to give me different names. I just never had one, man. And so I always said like, if you have something in mind, let's run with it.
Ken Rideout
Well, you had the Subway deal, which was a big deal.
Mike Lee
Yeah. Yeah. Um, ended up getting the the Subway deal. It was really cool early on in my career. It's funny what happened with that. I had a a fight on ESPN and I I think the the CMO at the time and some of the leadership were um Notre Dame graduates and affiliates.
So, I said on ESPN, unbeknownst to that, anyone was watching, that I'm very superstitious. And what I used to do even in the amateurs before fights is I would go get a bite of Subway after weigh-ins because in the amateurs like you never know where you know you're going to get food or whatever it Subway is just always there.
So they heard that, jumped on it, ended up having a meeting with them and uh did two Super Bowl commercials and 16 total national commercials with them. It was pretty wild. It was like
Ken Rideout
Dude that's incredible. Uh, you know who had a deal like that is uh Dustin Poirier was on Joe Rogan and Joe was teasing him about his Samsung phone and Dustin was like, "No, I love this phone." Well, dude, they did like a six figure deal with them. Not only that, they were like, "Just send us a list of anything you want. Refrigerators, washer, dryer, like everything Samsung." And I think he still has the partnership today.
That's cool. I love when stories like that happen because the best partnerships in this like sponsorship space are always those that are like organic and real. The audience can tell when it's organic and real and like, "Oh, this guy really uses that product and the people that follow you will appreciate the authenticity, but um grew up in Chicago. Let's get into it." What was your childhood like? [snorts]
Mike Lee
Yeah, it's like a therapy session.
Ken Rideout
Hell yeah.
Mike Lee
Yeah. I grew up in Chicago. I started boxing at the age of 8 years old. My dad brought me to a gym. Um, literally day one I was in there. I was eight sparring with a 10 or 12-year-old and I got my ass kicked. Like that's how all boxing journeys start.
I mean, went to the bathroom, you know, was holding back tears, the the blood bloody nose, the whole thing. Um, but early on I was addicted, man. Even though I got my ass kicked that first time, I was just addicted to that one-on-one aspect and just sports in general. So
Played a bunch of different sports growing up. Boxing was always the love. Really got back into it around like 16, 17. So kind of took a little bit of a hiatus from 8 years old. I was playing
Ken Rideout
One quick thing. Was your dad a boxer? Like where did that where did that interest in boxing come from for him?
Mike Lee
My dad was always a fighter. Um my my parents both grew up inner city Chicago. Um my dad didn't even graduate high school. um dropped out of high school, went to the military, you know, worked really hard to give me and my sister a life that they didn't have, right? So, my dad was always kind of a a scrappy uh street guy. And so,
He, you know, he played uh professional racquetball, actually.
Ken Rideout
Oh, wow.
Mike Lee
So, he was a really good racquetball player for a long time,
But never really officially boxed, but just always kind of loved the sport. So I grew up watching like, you know, he would show me all these legends like um Sugar Ray Leonard, Muhammad Ali, and then as I got a little older, Mike Tyson. And so he was just always a boxing fan. I think kind of from his background of being a fighter, but not in sanctioned fights,
Ken Rideout
You know what I mean?
Mike Lee
But yeah, so it it kind of took off around 16, 17. I started winning some amateur fights and then I went to University of Notre Dame. I fought there at their program.
Um
Ken Rideout
They had what a club team?
Mike Lee
They had a club team, but it was really cool. It's called the Bengal Bouts. Yep.
And you had a lot of kids in Notre Dame, you know, want to go to Notre Dame for the experience, the education, and there maybe wouldn't have been D1 athletes or maybe they would have been, but chose to kind of go to Notre Dame instead, right? So, you had a lot of kids that were athletes who wanted to learn how to fight. So, you had about 200 guys in this tournament um that would get together and all the money would be raised for charity. And it was my first time.
What what the Notre Dame Bengal Bouts taught me was how to fight in front of a crowd because championship night would have like five six thousand people there.
Ken Rideout
Yep.
Mike Lee
So that was huge because normally in the amateurs as boxers like you don't really fight in front of crowds and then all a sudden you turn pro and you're like holy [ __ ] this is different. So that that kind of helped me and then um I won the Chicago Golden Gloves.
Ken Rideout
Uh
What was that like?
Mike Lee
That was wild because I was definitely not expected to do that. Um I think my in my class I was I was 175 lb or 178 lb. I remember the second fight I had, I fought this really tough kid who I was really nervous. I I saw him knock out the guy before, which is rare in that time, right? And for us, we had head gear. I don't think they wear head gear anymore.
Ken Rideout
Yeah, that's right.
Mike Lee
I ended up knocking him down with a beautiful left hook. And it was kind of like a real moment for me of like, oh [ __ ] I might be good at this, you know, like actually good at this.
It was a cool moment, man, being born and raised in Chicago. And
Ken Rideout
How mental did your dad go when you knocked the guy down and won it? Oh, he went out of his mind.
Cuz I know your dad is like me. Like we're crazy for our kids and how you're going to be like, you don't want to be a maniac sports dad. None of us want to be a [ __ ] fool. We don't want to be like pushing the kids too hard, living vicariously.
But secretly, we all want them to be superstars. You want them to be like, "Please God, let him go proing something." But you don't want to like manifest that and have the kid carry that weight.
But that being said, how did he react when you did it? Was he like jumping around like a nut? because I know he's into it.
Mike Lee
He's He was jumping around like crazy like you know and especially and then if once I signed with Top Rank and got signed out of the Amateurs started my pro career I would just see him like I never really saw my dad cry growing up but when I fought in Madison Square Garden or I had you know big fight at Cowboys Stadium like I'd see him like tearing up
And it was cool for me cuz every young boy you know wants to you know impress or make make their dad proud. So
For me in the beginning of my career especially that was that was really a big part of it. You know
Ken Rideout
That's an interesting thing cuz you as a dad Yeah. It's inevitable. You can't control how the kids feel but you have to be very cognizant of the fact that you don't want them to feel like they need to perform for your affection. But it's hard to avoid because like even with my own kids when they do something great athletically it's hard for me to control my enthusiasm for it. But so as a result, I try to celebrate like every little thing so that when I'm super happy about sports, it's not like so blatant, but it isn't easy.
Like I think it's very difficult to be a good dad when it comes to sports.
Mike Lee
It's tough. And I think uh I had a great dad. He was incredibly supportive. Um I think to a fault I wanted to impress him, right? Like I wanted to get love from him. And
It it wasn't as black and white as if you lose I don't love you, right? But you could see and feel the momentum of winning and that love, right? So I think while that can be a negative in a lot of aspects, the positive side of it is it made me one of the best fighters in the world. I I was so driven, I think deep down in my core to impress him and impress other people that it it made me grind through all the painful time.
Now step back, I'm a father. I also know especially towards the end of my career to be frank I wish towards the end of my career when I was in a lot of pain we'll talk about this later I was dealing with autoimmune issues I wanted to be done I wish he would have come to me and just said Mike you're enough
Ken Rideout
Like we're done
Mike Lee
You're done you've done it all let's quit
And not that I asked him to say that but now that I'm a dad now and especially thinking about sports where you have concussions I mean people die in boxing right
I want to give my son that same type of energy and support. But I also want him to know that he is enough and that if I see that he's pushing himself too hard or god forbid in a dangerous sport like that that you call it quits whenever you want to call it quits. So
That's not a knock on my dad. I think he was a great dad and did everything with the tools he had. It's just me going through that experience. I learned towards the end with these big fights. I mean the fight for I fought for a world title. I broke my rib in the second round of that fight was for a junior world title back home in Chicago. I went eight rounds of the broken rib. Some of the worst pain you could ever have. Like I remember coming back to the corner after every single round, seeing the ring girl and I would peek over and see what round it is.
I'd be like, "It's only round five. [ __ ] it's only round six." I mean, you can't breathe. The pain I It was just It was a sloppy fight. And I somehow actually I think Teddy was one of the announcers for that fight.
Ken Rideout
No, I remember it really well.
Mike Lee
Yeah, I just remember I got I He got He came in the ring. I won the belt. I was all smiles. I didn't mention anything about my rib, but I was in so much pain. And we go back to the dressing room and I damn near collapsed. I was in so much pain. And so they rushed me to the hospital.
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
Mike Lee
In the hospital till 3:00 4:00 a.m. And my dad and my agent at the time are negotiating in the hallway. I'm sitting there and I'm watching them talk and kind of negotiate and talk about this next world title fight. And there's a part of me in that moment that was that 8-year-old boy again.
Yeah. Yeah. where I was like so [ __ ] up on these painkillers and my rib and I'm laying in a hospital bed where I'm like I don't
Ken Rideout
They're negotiating for your next like [ __ ] throwing you into the basically like feeding you to the line. This is for the Caleb Plant fight.
Mike Lee
Yeah. Yeah.
Which which to their credit I told them I I told my agent at that time cuz I had gone through so much pain and injury and um you know was later diagnosed with a couple autoimmune diseases. Um but I told my agent after that fight I said get me the world title fight. I'm number two in the world now in the IBF.
Get me the world title fight or or I'm retiring, you know?
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
Mike Lee
So, they knew I wanted it. But I'm just saying there's moments now that I'm a father that I can take those experiences and step back and like recognize when to push my kid
And when to back off and like, you know, cuz they're always going to be that little 8-year-old boy inside. You know, this is going to turn into a therapy session.
Ken Rideout
No, man. Cuz that is a tough fight. And even when it was announced, I'm like, "Oh, he's in very tough here." Caleb Plant is like compared to the guys that you had been fighting was not one step that was levels up from and I mean that's not a knock on you. You're talking about the best guy at that weight in the world, right? So, and and I feel like there was like maybe one or two fights between that that would have been like a more like let me get keep going, let me keep progressing because uh
Mike Lee
Yeah.
Ken Rideout
Yeah. I just I feel terrible the way it ended and we'll get into it. But I was like, I always thought and never told you like I just hope you realize like what an incredible career you have and don't put too much weight on that. Okay, you lost to the best guy in the world. Sucks and there's no way around that. But it doesn't diminish all the things that you did along the way. And I felt terrible cuz I was like, I know he's going to [ __ ] this is killing him.
I know it is because no one wants to lose on that stage, but I was like it was it was a [ __ ] the guy was just it's just life. There's going to be people that are better.
Mike Lee
I think you know a few things. One, my agent called for that fight. I said yes right away. He was like, "How much do you weigh?"
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
Mike Lee
And cuz he said the fights at super middleweight. Normally you would fought at light heavyweight. So I had to come down a weight class. And anybody that knows fighting knows how much that sucks, right?
Ken Rideout
Especially when you talk about you were fighting in the amateurs at 75. So now you're going to weigh in at 68 as a full grown man. That's not a small feat. you're really depleted.
Mike Lee
We signed the contract and I remember cuz I lied to people about what I weighed at the time cuz I said, "Fuck yeah, let's do it. Let's do this fight. Whatever I got to do." And I think I told him I was like, "Oh, I'm about 188 lbs. Like, we're good. Like, let's do this." I step on the scale, I was 205.
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
Mike Lee
And I turned to my girlfriend at the time and I was like, "It's fat camp, you know? It's time to like gear up." So, I will say like Caleb was as much as we didn't like each other, didn't get along, like he was young, hungry, champion the world. And to be frank, and I I wasn't honest about this until after I retired, I was really just kind of broken and dead inside because I'd gone through so much pain and we had to take multiple days off in training camp because this autoimmune disease was just kicking my ass.
It was
Ken Rideout
You know what's crazy, dudes? I could see this in the fight. Like, I could see this coming. I was like, "Something's off with Mike." Like, "I don't
It's not right. Something's off." And I don't know what it was. Like, I was like, "He's not scared, but something isn't right here." I was like, "I don't really want to watch this. I just have a bad vibe, but let's go. Let's get it."
Mike Lee
Yeah.
I mean, that's kind of how I felt. I um I I'll tell you, Ken, I had I had a really wild moment um before that fight that I'd never had before. So here here's how I'll articulate this. Early in my career, I was an animal and I was like a dog. You have to kill me to beat me, right? And I knew that you had to have that mentality to get up to that elite status.
Ken Rideout
Y
Mike Lee
When I started getting sick, which was towards the middle end of my career and was later diagnosed with Lyme disease, all of a sudden I was less worried about, you know, losing and I was more worried about getting hurt.
Yeah. So now I would come into fights saying, "Yeah, I want to win. You know, I'm a competitor. I'm a champion. I'm top 10, top five in the world. Like, I want this, but am I going to the hospital tonight?"
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
Mike Lee
And so something really weird happened and came over me. It had nothing to do with Caleb in the moment. It was just like my body telling me, my soul telling me I had enough.
We're taking the limo to the arena uh at the MGM Grand. And I get out and right as you get out, you walk with your team, you know, and the cameras are in your face. But I had this weird moment and like question that came across me and it was, "Are you going to the hotel room tonight or are you going to the hospital tonight?" Yeah.
And I think it was PTSD from my last fight when I broke my rib.
That's a mind [ __ ] to be going into the MGM Grand for a world title fight against a newly crowned, you know, champion of the world. Um,
And it once again, it wasn't it wasn't Caleb, but I had to shake that and get into the locker room and be like, "All right, let's do this. Let's do this."
I wasn't like scared of him. I was scared of what I knew I would put myself through.
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
Mike Lee
And the ref ended up stopping that fight because I got knocked down a few times and I think now I'm glad he stopped it cuz that's his job. But ultimately in the moment I wasn't hurt.
Those are flash knockdowns.
Ken Rideout
Y
Mike Lee
My legs were still there. I wanted to keep going, but I know that I would have kept going until I was in the hospital or died. Like that's just me. I would have taken too much damage.
Ken Rideout
Yeah. No. Watching as your friend I was like, "Okay, good. Stop this." right?
Cuz I couldn't see anything that was like the tide's going to shift here any minute.
Mike Lee
Well, my plan with him was he's so sharp in the beginning and even Canelo Benvdas when he fought all those guys and he fought Canelo after me.
Um he's so sharp in the beginning, world class, especially at that age. Like
His boxing IQ off the charts.
I knew as soon as I stepped in there
His boxing IQ would be great and his distance and timing would be great. His speed wasn't like anything I hadn't seen before, but his timing and IQ and movement was different.
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
Mike Lee
My goal was to keep coming forward, show him I'm a dog, I'm stronger than him, break him down rounds 7, 8, 9 [clears throat] through 12.
So, I knew I would take a little bit of a beating in the beginning.
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
Mike Lee
But when I got dropped a couple times, I was really surprised because I'd been hit by much harder guys, bigger guys in sparring and and real fights. And I think not to make excuses because once again he's a champion, but there is an element of I had to cut so much weight that your brain rehydrates last cuz I remember later thinking,
Dude, that didn't even hurt. Why am I why am I on the ground, especially the first round? Like why?
And I I do wonder how much is that also, you know, how much was his precision and timing and all that, but I knew I would take a beating in the beginning to make it up in the later rounds. So once again, I think Robert Bird was was our ref and he's done multiple huge world championship fights. So
Ken Rideout
Yeah, and he hasn't. He's he's had some bad moments as well.
Mike Lee
He They all have, but his job is to protect me from myself because even though I had that moment where I was scared once that bell rang, man.
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
Mike Lee
Like once again, fighting with a broken rib, like I could have easily quit that fight, but [ __ ] that. I'm going out of my shield.
Ken Rideout
Exactly.
Mike Lee
And at some point I'm 32. I think Caleb was 27, 26 at the time. like this sport is brutal, man. I was 22 fights in. My body and my soul was like, "You're done." So when when he stopped the fight, you could see I was really upset cuz I wanted to keep going.
But also, Ken, I had this weird feeling of um relief.
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
Mike Lee
For like the first time in a decade.
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
Mike Lee
Because I knew I was going to be done win or lose that fight. I was like I told myself, even if you win this fight, retire as champion cuz I can't go to the hospital anymore. Yeah.
And I want to hold my kids when I'm 50, you know,
And I was worried about the concussion stuff. So, I had this sense of relief as I stood up. And I went back to the dressing room. I was balling my eyes out crying. I told Julian Chua and Jamal Doula, my trainers. I was like, "I'm so sorry."
Like, for what? I was like, "I I feel like I let you guys down." I was more sad I let them down. They were like,
Mike Lee
That was your first loss, right? That was my first loss. And I had this feeling of sadness cuz I'm a competitor. But for the first time, like I said, I had this sense of relief where you don't have to do this anymore.
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
Mike Lee
Like you're done. You're enough. You're done. You don't have to worry if you're going to [ __ ] die tonight, you know, for for a check and some glory.
And it was a kind of beautiful moment that I like let myself like be done with this career. I started when I first put gloves on at 8 years old.
Ken Rideout
Yeah. And that fight was at uh was it MGM?
Mike Lee
MGM Grand. Yeah,
Ken Rideout
That's right. I I was there. I was sitting like I had a press pass from the fight with Teddy Atlas and was at Who was the main event? Was it Pacquiao?
Mike Lee
Uh Pacquiao.
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
Mike Lee
Yeah.
Ken Rideout
I was sitting up in the uh like press suites and uh feeling like I was important.
Mike Lee
Yeah.
Ken Rideout
Convinced myself that I was special. Then realized like no one's special. All we're all the same. Whether you're in the ring, in the stands, everyone's got their own like fight to fight.
Mike Lee
Yeah. No. Amen. No. So, I'm I'm grateful. It was a great career. I'm glad you said that earlier cuz there are days when I wake up and I'm like, "Fuck, I I know that I jumped into that fight." You know, for instance, we were trying to get the fight with Julio Caesar Chavez Jr. for a long time. That would have been a great fight.
Ken Rideout
That would have been a good fight for you.
Mike Lee
We both come forward. He's a banger. I'm a banger. I would have I know I would have beat him. But, yeah, to go to step up was was big. I wasn't afraid of the moment. I love those moments. I was more just kind of like beaten down, like I said.
Ken Rideout
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I know what you mean. I could see that. But at the end of the day, you went you had one loss. You had won some junior world titles and had like the best experience possible as a fighter and got out of there with like all your faculties and uh have awesome memories. I just wouldn't if I were you let that one blemish like cloud the entire the entirety of like the body of work, which was awesome. Like it's a dream come true to win all those fights.
And what was it like fighting in uh in a Cowboy stadium?
Mike Lee
That was cool. That was uh I was on the HBO undercard for uh Manny Pacquiao versus Joshua Clottey and you feel like an ant walk that stadium, right? Cuz I think they had 70,000 people, which is a lot. But in Cowboys Stadium,
Ken Rideout
I hate watching fights in those huge stadiums cuz it's again, it's like you're watching two guys fight on the 50 yard line from like the nosebleleeds. Like you might as well be watching at home.
Mike Lee
Yeah, I know. But that that's actually I got a funny story with that. I I got a I think a second round knockout. It was early in my career. Uh all my friends, my buddies from Notre Dame, family came out cuz he's like, "Oh, you're fighting at Cowboys Stadium." Was like maybe fifth fight of my career. And I'm in the dressing room uh after the fight kind of like showered, whatever. This guy comes over in a suit, real big dude, intimidating. He goes, "Are you Mike Lee?" I'm like, "Uh, depends who's asking what's going on." He goes, "Mr.
Jones would like to see you. I was like, "Jerry Jones." He's like, "Yeah." I was like, "All right, let's go." I told him, I said, "Can I bring my buddies?" And he like looked around. I had like 10 people with me. He's like, "All right, come on. Let's go."
So, we ended up going up to the suite and I got to sit next to Jerry Jones and Wayne Newton and watch the Pacquiao fight. And Jerry was the nicest guy. I I don't even know if he would even remember this. We We only met once. Um, but, you know, up in the suite and I was like, "Damn, I'm 24 years old. I just got a second round knockout. and I'm sitting next to Jerry Jones. Like life was good, man. And I I'm super appreciative of of that career and it's, you know, it's the Teddy Roosevelt.
It's it's the man in the arena of course, right? Like
Uh as much as that one loss and and some of those things like really kind of affect me, I also can like go to sleep at night knowing I went for it. I can go to sleep at night knowing that I did and went after things that 99.9% of this world won't do. I mean, like yourself. And I think win or lose, like I'd rather go out in my shield like that, so [ __ ] the loss, you know?
Ken Rideout
Yeah, exactly. It was awesome. And I uh I mean, I loved watching all your fights and uh I brought my kids over to your apartment one time and they all tried on your belts. They loved it. It was um it was an incredible uh journey watching you do it. And then seeing you get the subway deal and the Notre Dame degree, it was just like novel in a sport where most of the guys come from like, you know, inner city gritty neighborhoods. Even Caleb Plants, you know, childhood was like gritty.
I see a video online of a kid trying to stab him in a fight. Like it's just there's like different background. The the typical background. you didn't fit the mold of what I would have view as like a world championship fighter, but yet you did it because most of these kids are fighting with no other options. So to see someone come with a Notre Dame degree and do the things you did was incredible.
Mike Lee
I appreciate that. I I think I really do credit that to my dad because although you he taught me so much and he was very involved in my life both as you know a human, a young man and an athlete and he just always instilled that grind method in me. So, like even though I had Notre Dame degree and I
Uh was lucky enough to come from a better background than a lot of guys I fought, like I didn't feel that way. Like that's kind of the thing about sports. Like when that bell rings,
Dude, I don't care. You're black, white, purple, what your like
We're here to see who's the best.
Two guys with two fist. That's why everyone like I heard this analogy. I think Max Kellerman said this, but like if you're standing on a street corner, right, and there's four corners and at every single corner someone's playing a sport. Yeah.
These guys are playing basketball over here. These guys are playing baseball. These guys are playing hockey. But on this corner, two guys are fighting. Who's everybody watching? Exactly. There's a natural human instinct. I don't know if it's from the gladiators or what it is. When two people are fighting mono and mono, there's a respect for it because people understand that. They understand that like you're you're going out in your shield and it's the definition of the man of the arena, right? So, I just when the bell rang like
That's how I felt. I gravitated towards that
Honestly adrenaline rush. It's the best drug you've ever done in your life when you get to jump on the ropes after grinding, working your ass off months and months and months and then you get a big win. Like, it's
Ken Rideout
It's the best feeling ever.
Mike Lee
I still miss it to this day. I don't miss the pain, but god damn do I miss the rainwalk.
Ken Rideout
when the amateurs were over and you turned pro. Like for the people out there that don't understand how the sport works, like what happens? Like you sign with Top Rank, which is very rare that you get a promoter right out of the amateurs, but you had the um you had the backstory. That was interesting. So Top Rank signs you. What happens? Do they do they give you like, "Hey, we're going to give you a 10 fight deal.
You're guaranteed to make 10 grand a fight or like how does
Mike Lee
it work?" Each person's kind of different, but generally um I think I signed like a four-year deal and I was guaranteed maybe like four fights a year. Y
Right. And so they have matchmakers and they help groom you and whether you are
Kind of a nobody or you're an Olympian, they want to build you up. So
Ken Rideout
Close
Mike Lee
First 10 15 fights um you know they start to get opponents get tougher and tougher and tougher and then as you start to break top 15 then you got to fight like real guys. So they just wanted to put me up. And the beautiful thing about signing with a top rank or you know now Done or um you know Dana Zufa or whatever it is is they can put you on big platforms. The reason why I was able to fight at Madison Square Garden and on undercards um Cowboys Stadium.
So when it was my moment to step into these big fights, I was already used to it, right? So yeah, the way it works, they give you like a usually a guaranteed like really low amount in the beginning. M um but what we negotiated cuz we knew I could sell tickets is um a lot more deals on the ticket pricing.
So I would make more money in the beginning like
We'd sell 100 grand worth of tickets when I would fight at back home in Chicago, right? And for a kid who's 4 and0, it was super rare. But I had these national commercials and this different backstory. And so, yeah, I was with Top Rank the first, I guess, four-ish years of my career. And they did a a great job kind of helping me come, you know, work up the ladder, so to speak.
Ken Rideout
And in those early days, like for people that understand boxing, they'll get this. But for people that don't have a boxing background, like you said, they're grooming you, they're bringing you along, they're giving you kind of a soft touch as you're coming up. Like how many of those fights in the first like 2, three years where you're like, "Holy [ __ ] this guy's like got two left feet. I'm going to destroy this guy." Were there ever any ones where you're like, "Where did they find this guy?" Like
Mike Lee
A couple Yeah, a couple in the beginning. Right. Like right in the beginning, um you have guys who had like a
Ken Rideout
They don't owe and they're professional opponents. They're not there to They're not They're not there to lose intentionally. They're going to try, but they stink.
Mike Lee
Exactly. And so you start to get to four, five, six, seven. But I will say I had a big target on my back. Right. So like similar to I guess Notre Dame football team like I had a lot of people that hated me and wanted me to lose. So there were guys who were there to lose that were trying to win, you know, normally. So
Ken Rideout
And by and by there to lose you mean they know that on paper they're being mismatched against a guy who's a top ranked guy. We're grooming this guy. You we think you stink. You want this fight? And the guy says, "Yeah." And then he goes in and he definitely does his best, but he stinks.
Mike Lee
Yeah.
Ken Rideout
But you can still get someone who's like,
"You guys think I stink. I lost my first fight. I don't have a promoter. No one's grooming me. They're just throwing me in with what they think is feeding me to the lions, but I got different intentions. So, they're there. They're definitely trying to win. They're just the matchmaker sees something in them that's like he's a perfect opponent, meaning he I don't think he can be in the ring with Mike in the early days.
Mike Lee
Yeah. And that that's what happens whether you're Canelo, Floyd, like all these that's how you kind of work your way up in the beginning. Um
So, yeah. I mean, but but no matter what, like
Ken Rideout
It's the same thing in MMA. They're not going to get a guy who has tremendous potential. I mean, once you get to the UFC, I will say you're [ __ ] you can be in there with a savage the first fight. There's much less grooming, but by the time they sign you at the UFC, they know you are there's real talent. They don't sign in the UFC, unlike in boxing, not that those guys that are opponents are signed, but once you get to the UFC, that pool is deep.
The the like guy who they might have the least ranked, he's still a [ __ ] cage fighter. like you you got to be careful
More so than like early days in a boxing career.
Mike Lee
Totally agree. And I think, you know, it sounds cliche, but like one punch can change anything. So, also fighters go into it knowing like
My reputation's on the line. Everything I worked for is on the line. So, like I never took anybody lightly. There would definitely be times when like I'm like, "All right, I'm going to beat this guy." I actually thought that every single fight, but but moments with you were like, "All right, you know, this guy's kind of got no shot." But I never took him lightly cuz I always knew one shot could [ __ ] up all my dreams.
Ken Rideout
That's right. Cuz you're still in a boxing match with a guy who whether he stinks or not, he's still throwing punches every day, every week. One shot that gets through,
You can get knocked out. Especially at the weight you were fighting at 175. Like
Mike Lee
Exactly
Ken Rideout
That's not like for a boxer that's a big guy.
Mike Lee
And that's the thing that I think the that boxing needs to learn from UFC. UFC, for some reason in their culture, in the fandom, they tolerate a few losses.
Ken Rideout
Exactly.
Mike Lee
They don't really care. Look at Justin Gatey. How many What
Ken Rideout
Got like 13 losses? He's got a lot. I don't know what
Mike Lee
Can you imagine a 13 loss guy fighting the best in the world for
Ken Rideout
It might not be 13, so I don't want to be like attacked, but he's got enough losses. But not only that, he's been knocked out. He's been like,
Mike Lee
You know what I mean? Like, and I'm not taking away from Justin Gate. What I'm saying is like styles make fights
And and Floyd really changed the game with this because
Ken Rideout
And not necessarily for the better.
Mike Lee
Not necessarily for the better. He he changed the boxing game to where having that zero after your record was everything, right? And it changed kind of the culture to where okay, if a guy had a couple losses now it wasn't as exciting versus like let's see if this is his first loss. And somehow UFC has gotten around that which I think has created much better cards. Generally UFC cards, like we were just talking earlier, uh the DC card was stacked. The entire the entire card was stacked.
Boxing is not like that. Boxing, a lot of prelims aren't really that that [ __ ] good. And then you got the main event will be great. Or maybe the co-main is really good.
Ken Rideout
No, but to your point, you got guys on the undercards of those big pay-per-view boxing matches that are being groomed and being brought along. So they're in there with like a mis basically a mismatch until you get to the last two three fights of the night in some cases.
Mike Lee
Exactly. But I will say boxing makes more money than UFC does. At least let me rephrase that. The fighters make more money like pound-for-pound. Why do you think all these guys in Ganu, you know, all these guys go to boxing? Yeah. UFC doesn't pay their fighters like boxing pays. So yes, the boxing system is broken. It's segmented a lot of in a lot of ways. It's corrupt, but
You know, Canelo Alvarez making $150 million in one night. No one's doing that in the UFC. Jon Jones, what I mean, he is the goat. What's he making? What' they say? 10 million plus probably some kickers and stuff.
Dude, Caleb Plant probably made 10 million when he fought uh Canelo. And I guarantee more people know who Jon Jones is than Caleb Plant. So,
I don't know. I don't know the inner workings. I just I just know that like both industries kind of need to catch up in their own different ways. You know,
Ken Rideout
There's probably some middle ground there and I don't know what it is. I don't I'm not involved in the business side of things, but um seeing Zufa get involved in boxing just for forget the compensation just in terms of competition. I'd love to see a boxing platform that has more competitive fights on a regular basis. And if you lose a fight, it's not the end of your career. It's like, all right, lost. because you really you learn so much from a loss. Like guys can come back from one loss and be like so much better, but without that loss, they like start to believe that they're like something special and they don't have things to work on.
And losses give you those things to to work on. And it's very hard to get sparring relevant to your abilities. Like if you're 20 and old guy, like where are you going to find another guy who's like 25 and two who's, you know what I mean? like they're not going to want to spar with you cuz you're like a future opponent for them.
Mike Lee
Exactly.
Ken Rideout
And on the comeup when you're a developing fighter, you're the sparring partner for the guy who's 20 and0 and that's where you have the opportunity to learn.
But again, you're being brought in the sparring partner. When I was in the camp with Teddy and we'd bring in sparring partners for Alex Vosdic, he the sparring partner wasn't there to develop or get better. He was there to mimic exactly our better be of style. And if he didn't,
Teddy would be like, "Stop. What are you doing? Like, I don't want you showing me what you can. You're not here for you. You work for this guy. We're paying you a thousand bucks a week. Mimic this style and essentially get lit up. But, I mean, you know, it hopefully you have a responsible trainer who's not letting the champion tune up the sparring partners. Although that happens. It's completely irresponsible because you won't have guys coming back very often.
Mike Lee
You're so right. And I think what you said earlier, the losses teach you more than anything. I mean, even though I knew I was going to retire, I look back now at that loss that I had against Caleb, but I learned so much.
Yeah.
That there's so many different ways I would have gone towards that fight and then even like future fights. You know, I'm glad I retired. That was the decision. But I feel like I learned more during that loss than a lot of the wins or at least like, you know, the tough wins even that maybe weren't that pretty and felt like a loss to me. Um, you learn so much more from.
Ken Rideout
when you were developing, did you get invited to any like really like top-notch training camps like to work as a sparring partner?
Cuz that's the other thing when you're being groomed and you're like, you know, when people have like high hopes for you, they don't want to put you in there with like a Gilberto Ramirez and be like, "Hey, spar with Gilberto." Even though you're 5-0 and he's 20 or whatever, like fill in the name because they don't want the prospect getting the [ __ ] kicked out of him by a really polished senior guy. Right.
Mike Lee
Yeah. Kind of on and off. I think a lot of the gyms I trained in had top level guys. So I was not at that stage where I was like brought in at that point cuz you're going there for money if you're a sparring partner mostly.
But you know when I signed I with Top Rank I started in Houston with Ronnie Shields.
Ronnie had Yander Holyfield and you know before me obviously and then he had a bunch of world champions come in. So whether it was the Charlo brothers did so many
Ken Rideout
Was Regis Prograde down there with
Mike Lee
You. Regis was down there with us. Charlo's down there. I freaking love Cron. Like all these different guys would come through. Yeah. Read.
Ken Rideout
Dude, that's a bad boy gym.
Mike Lee
Yeah. Oh,
Ken Rideout
That is a [ __ ] gangster gym.
Mike Lee
Ronnie's the real deal. And now Ronnie's training Errol Spence.
Ken Rideout
No, Ronnie's the real deal. But those are some [ __ ] killers when those kids were young. The Charloss. I always thought about the Charloss thing. That drove me crazy about them. I'm like, these are the most marketable [ __ ] kids in boxing. They're incredibly handsome. They're they're as good as it gets. They are awesome fighters, but they want to be gangsters. It reminded me of like Aaron Hernandez. Like, dude, you're at the top. You don't have to act like an [ __ ] Just show up.
You're the man.
You don't have to be like a gangster. You're a professional fighter. You punch faces for money. You don't have to act like a tough guy outside of the ring. We know you're tough. But those kids always seem to shoot themselves in the foot. It would drive me crazy. I'd always think like, can I just have a word with these kids to explain to them that like you don't need to do all this. You're doing, as the kids would say, you're doing too much,
Mike Lee
Right? Yeah, I I was always closer with Maul. Um, in fact, I drove down to Houston to see everybody and watch Maul train and uh me and him grabbed dinner and kind of hung out and talked about the old times. He's got another fight uh coming up actually does.
He's the co-main event with Errol Spence when Errol Spence fights uh Tim Zoo.
Ken Rideout
Really? That's a good match. That on paper should be a good match for Errol, but if he can't get it done there, it's not a good sign.
Mike Lee
Yeah, he's 30. Errol's 37, but
Ken Rideout
Yeah. But after that last fight against Crawford, it's hard to imagine him having a [ __ ] good fight. I mean, he got [ __ ] demolished.
Mike Lee
Well, once again, boxing really coming down on and demonizing people for their losses versus their wins. Errol Spence is a world class talent. Incredible fighter. Agreed. But he has this stain of the Crawford loss and how he got beat so bad. However, Crawford is generational all
Ken Rideout
He's one of the best that's ever lived.
Mike Lee
One one of the best ever lived.
Ken Rideout
But when you get I mean he he got punished. He got sure. I mean, look, I love Errol Spence. I hope he does really well. I just think that kind of loss is like, like you said, you got some flash knockdowns. You got out of there, didn't really take much damage. Errol got damaged from pillar to post. Came out of there in [ __ ] pieces
Mike Lee
And he had that car crash.
Ken Rideout
The car crash, I think, is what really was the first step in the towards the end.
Mike Lee
You absolutely see guys, as much as they don't want to admit it in the fighting sports, once they've had a knockout or some damage, they're changed.
Ken Rideout
100%. That's That's
Mike Lee
They're never the same. Exactly. Right. They're never the same.
Ken Rideout
Roy Jones, perfect example. Once he got knocked out, he kept getting knocked out. It was sad.
Mike Lee
Yeah,
Ken Rideout
Cuz before he got caught by who was it? Um
Mike Lee
Oh, he lost to uh Antonio Tarver.
Ken Rideout
He got knocked out by a couple guys, but it was just sad to see. But once that fast twitch goes, when you're relying on athleticism, like Teddy Atlas used to say, like, yo, when you're getting away with things you shouldn't get away with because you're athletic and age catches up and all of a sudden that split-second reaction where you're pulling back in a way you shouldn't and you normally get away with it and crack them on the on the comeback, all of a sudden those shots are landing and when you don't have your hands up and you're out of position and get hit by a big shot, it's lights out.
Mike Lee
Yeah. 100%. you know, coming up in those type of camps around those type of talent and working day in day out, you you know, I got my ass kicked in the beginning, like for sure.
Ken Rideout
Oh, so you were working with all those kids.
Mike Lee
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Right off the bat. They threw me in a lion's den. It was great, you know. Um, also I thought I was the [ __ ] cuz I was killing it in the amateurs and my top rank and here I am with these killers.
Also hungry. And so,
Ken Rideout
Were there any other white kids there?
Mike Lee
Well, uh, yeah, Danny O' Conor.
Ken Rideout
Oh, yeah.
Mike Lee
A Boston guy who I want to actually introduce you to. we spoke a little bit about. Um, but no, I mean I just once again like I said when the bell rang I never really like cared but yeah I mean given the sport I guess
Ken Rideout
There's a lot of time in between rounds when you're in a boxing gym.
Mike Lee
Yeah. Oh for sure. I was and if anything I had to like prove myself more. I never really like thought about it but yeah I mean most gyms I was usually you know the only white guy there.
Yeah but interesting. No, I mean I mean some of my closest like friends and uh trainers and you know your team you end up you become this family of course you know and so at that moment like you know whether you're black, Asian, what I've had all different types of races and ethnicities in my corner and they're [ __ ] family dude you know because you got to trust them to throw in the towel. God forbid if it gets to that or you got to trust them to you know that's why people love boxing though.
It's such a microcosm of like sports and culture and ethnicity and it's just
Ken Rideout
That's going to like that that especially for kids you have to understand is like
You know obviously my kids are grow growing up differently than I did and your kids will grow up slightly different than you grew up you have to remind kids for anyone listening like I don't care where you're from if you think that being from an inner city or from the country it makes you any more or less tough you are [ __ ] crazy your life experiences might be different. But when you're on the field, whether you're between the sidelines or you're in the ring, once it's me locking eyes with you, it's me and you.
And what you've done and who you are, none of it matters. Right now, what matters is heart against heart, skill against skill. And you have to block out that noise. The problem is, it's very easy to get intimidated and let their person's background intimidate or give you a false sense of security. I'm from the city. This kid's a suburban idiot. Like guys who would come in to fight you. Oh, this is a white kid from Notre Dame. He's got a degree. He doesn't have to be here.
I grew up in the projects in Chicago. Like, I don't care where you came from. At the end of the day, a punch is a punch. And you can't influence what's in that guy's heart. And if someone's a dog, they're a dog. And going down there to that gym though, those kids, they they've convinced that they're the dogs. And they were probably like, "Oh, look at this soft guy. We're going to get him." And Regis is down, dude. Regis ProGrade is like
The one of the best guys I ever met in boxing. He is that guy has an incredible backstory but incredibly well read crazy intelligent not books not the traditional like academic scholar
But very curious very uh intelligent boned up on everything when I was in LA just would be like yo I started um I I I've been free diving and I'm like oh really and he's like yeah I think I don't know if he said he went spare fishing or he wanted to try it and I had a friend in finance um unfortunately who died in a spare fishing accident who was like really into this and uh he was like yo I'm into I said yo I got a friend who's a fighter kid from New Orleans world champion he wants to go spear fishing me and Reges I had never done it went with my friend Peter and we went spear fishing off the beach in Malibu and I just thought how funny is it this kid from like inner city New Orleans world champion fighter he's like give me all the gear he's down like he wanted to try every kid wanted to live life
To the fullest traveling just but if you talk to him you'd be like oh this is like a [ __ ] city kid
But just inc judge a book by its cover because he is uh incredibly dynamic. He just fought um he just lost Yeah. he lost to Conor Ben
Connor Ben. Yeah. In uh in the UK. Yeah. The funny thing is I was over there either at the same time or a week later promoting my book and I tried to connect him with uh Shane Mcwigan who's my buddy who's a trainer of like multiple world champions and Shane set him up with a gym and everything. But boxing can be a shady corrupt business. But there are also like little pockets and handfuls of like really solid guys that will do anything for you if you're in that little if you're in the uh you know the fraternity.
Mike Lee
Yeah, for sure. And we were talking earlier, I I was I've done some commentating and was thinking about kind of staying in the sport, figuring that out. But
When you've been doing it since you were eight, I kind of was just like, I'm done with it, you know? I didn't even watch boxing or go to a boxing gym for 3, four years after after that Caleb fight.
Not cuz of the loss, but I was just like, man, I just need something else in my life. Um took up surfing, ended up, you know, launching a business and just be like, there's got to be more to life, more to my identity than I'm just a a fighter.
Ken Rideout
Yeah. But I tell you that has to come from within you because I I just think of you like it's funny. I've met people that we know in common and I'm like dude you who the hell was I talking to recently and I was like you know that he's a former world champion fighter. Was it Nick Mayer?
Mike Lee
Oh it might have been Nicki
Ken Rideout
Someone. I'm like they were literally like what? I'm like are you [ __ ] crazy? You don't know who you who Mike Lee is. Dude, they were like what? I'm like yeah man this guy is like the real deal but I know like I know that you're more than a fighter. I don't know if you know it.
Mike Lee
It
Ken Rideout
I know you want to believe that, but I don't know if you've like fully accepted the fact that you're more than a fighter.
Mike Lee
I don't think I have. I mean, you try and you hear a lot of guys, whether they're in sports or military or whatever it is, like that identity shift. It's really [ __ ] tough.
And I still struggle with it. What I retired seven coming up eight years now. And like I said earlier, there's nothing like that feeling, that adrenaline rush, right? and you become addicted to that and your family that you train with basically and it's just that goes away and it's kind of sad, you know,
Ken Rideout
Especially when it gave you so much like recognition and so the the spoils of your of your work were so evident in in on display like I get moments of doubt with running where I feel like people always like what's the next race? What's the next race? I'm like I'm not a [ __ ] performing monkey. I was a I ran some races and I still run every day, but like that isn't everything that I am. I have a million other things going on. And some days I really believe that.
And other days I'm like, [ __ ] I'm not good at anything except running. And even that I'm like, I'm not really good. I'm the tallest [ __ ] The other like I can't beat like real runners. That's that's our own internal [ __ ] that has to be dealt with. But anyone that knows you knows that you're a dad. You've got a business. Like you [ __ ] have a degree from Notre Dame. Like oh, and you also happen to win some world titles. And that's should be celebrated.
And I still feel like because of the loss to Caleb, you're kind of carrying this around like, yeah, [ __ ] I lost my last fight where it's like, well, [ __ ] that, dude. You know that I won multiple world titles. Like, I'll kill you. It's Yeah, it's funny. Like, it feels like a different person almost sometimes. Like, but what's that? Um, I don't know who said it, but I ain't as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I ever was.
Mike Lee
You ever heard that?
I feel that to a tea. I just turned 39 and I'm like, you know, I still got the aches and pains and and dealing with some health stuff even though things have gotten a lot better. But it's like, yeah, I'm as good once as I ever was if it came down to it.
Ken Rideout
But, you know, it's still like even for myself, so I can imagine you get this too. You walk into like a fitness gym and there's a heavy bag going over. I love cracking it because I tell people this all the time when it comes to golf, boxing, ice hockey, until like the the intensity gets turned up or the lights get turned on, if you see me hitting the bag, you'll be like, "Oh [ __ ] this guy's a real fighter." Like, he looks smooth. If you see me on a golf course, until the minute my club hits that ball, you'll be like, "Holy [ __ ] this guy's a professional golfer.
Like, I know how to fit in." Same with ice hockey. Like, I can shoot the puck. I can whip around the rink. [snorts] when the whistle blows and the and the intensity gets turned up, I'm like exposed of like, yeah, I'm just not as good as everyone else. But when I see you hit the bag, I'm like, it must be cool to walk into a gym and just start throwing punches and have the like people be like, "What the fuck?" Cuz you can see instantly when someone knows how to hit a bag.
Mike Lee
Yeah.
And is someone who's hit it cuz they took six tie bowl classes and someone who's actually like faced punches coming back at them. It's funny you say I I've told that to my friends and people a lot of times about fighting like you give me
Three to five seconds I'll know immediately if that person can fight or not exactly they hit a bad it's kind of like shooting a basketball a little bit
I'll know immediately and and when people don't know fighting they're like what are you talking about how could you tell like even if someone looks so clean on the mits there's just these little things I can tell like a real fight no they don't they don't have it
Ken Rideout
There is no [ __ ] idea of slipping. They don't ex Nothing's coming back at them." When you're conditioned to throw punches and someone's hitting back at you, everything comes with movement. You never throw a punch and standing in the same spot when you're done, right? Everything is movement. All that to say, like I don't do that, but if I'm standing still, I can throw punches and look like I know what I'm doing. It's when the punches start coming back at me. Like, one of the most humbling things you could ever do that I had the pleasure of doing with you is just getting in the ring with someone who's a real fighter who who is not going to [ __ ] hurt you because they will.
And just moving around with you and Rob Mo was there. He's like, "Dude, you [ __ ] real like you really look good." I'm like, he didn't throw a single punch. I'm like, "Are you crazy? Yeah, but I mean, but when you're at that class of a fighter, you can throw a couple punches without making someone look stupid or hurt them. But it was just it was fun. And I knew what you were doing. I knew what I was doing. But
It was uh I think one of my sons was there and Yeah. And it was just it was just fun for him to be like, "Dad, you were in there boxing." I'm like, "Yeah, buddy. I did it."
Mike Lee
Yeah. That's cool. It's so funny with athleticism, too, in terms of like endurance because I'm sure after a few rounds, like you were gassed. You're you're like world class endurance, right?
Ken Rideout
Like
Mike Lee
I was barely breathing.
But you stick me in a race, I'm gassed.
Ken Rideout
It's like it's it's like this fatigue will make a coward out of anyone. When you get tired, as you know, when you get tired and the other guy sees that and he starts to turn it up and you're like, this is what I always tell people about running races is like I really would have this inner dialogue of like I feel like ass right now. I don't know if I can keep going. And then I remind myself, at least no one's trying to punch my face or choke me
Because I've been in the ring for amateur fights and have done a little bit of grappling. And when someone's trying to hurt you and they sense that weakness, it just gets so much worse up. You're withering. And that's why they say fatigue will make a coward out of anyone cuz you'll look scared shitless. You'll convince yourself that you should quit like uh Taporia against Gachi. When you tell the ref, I don't care if you're [ __ ] legitimately blind or you're not blind. If you tell the ref, I can't see out of this eye, the fight is over.
That's the easiest way, like Teddy Atlas would call it, silently quitting. Like a silent resignation of like, guy, I can't see out of my eye. Okay, no problem. Fight's over.
I didn't quit. Yeah, I know. But we all know universally if you say I can't see the fight, they have to stop the fight. M.
And I think that that's what Taporia did at one point, which shockingly they kept the fight going after he said, "I can't see." And I think he realized in that split second like, "Oh [ __ ] they're going to stop." And he came to the realization like, "Oh my god." Like, cuz every even as the guy saying, "I can't see." You know, in your heart like, "I'm just quitting."
Mike Lee
And that's where I'm I'm stuck between the fan in me and the ex-fighter in me. And what what I mean is the fan in me says, "Why are you quitting?"
Ken Rideout
Yeah, of course.
Mike Lee
You know, don't be a [ __ ]
Yep. fall on your shield. Y
And then the actual fighting experience in me knows that
Dude, he's got maybe 50 more years plus of life.
Of course,
Ken Rideout
Completely agree.
Mike Lee
No one is going to give a [ __ ] when he's in the hospital bed struggling, right? So,
Ken Rideout
I completely agree.
Mike Lee
Make your money and protect your family and get the [ __ ] out. You know,
Ken Rideout
The problem is when you're a young fighter and you still want to keep doing this, that split-second decision is going to haunt you for the rest of your life.
Cuz you know who actually did that? But I think once Charles Holivera, I don't know if he quit on the stool or what the deal was, but he was like critic one of the criticism was that he gave up on a fight. Whether he whether he let someone submit him, which is an easy way out in the UFC. Like that's the way you can
Put up, you know, you'll see you'll see a guy about to get choked. He's like, "What the hell? He's not defending any of this." And then you're like, "Oh, he tapped." And you're like,
"Yeah, the guy's too good to get submitted that easily." But it's like did that was the um knock on um Connor when when um Nate Diaz choked him out in that first fight and they were like, "Yeah, you quit. You let him choke you out."
Which I mean, you're getting smashed on the ground. Like you can understand why, but
That stain is going to ling with you whether it's justified or not. But Charles was able to come back from it, win a world title, and be like feared as like one of the top dogs. It's a very rare thing. But again, back to your point about the UFC is like you get a new chance. You get a fresh start every every single fight in the UFC.
Mike Lee
Amen. And that's why even guys like Floyd and Canelo who have years and years and years under their belt, how they still have that motivation to wake up every day and be excellent is honestly incredible. I mean, once again, you're making a 100 million plus a night. Like 99.9% of the world is like, I'm done. What are we doing?
Ken Rideout
One fight at 100 mil. Even if I walk out of there with 30 for myself, I'm like, after taxes and paying everyone under the sun and getting robbed for half of it, I'm sure that that's the case, too.
Mike Lee
You're like, I'm going to Greece. Like, we're done. I'm not getting punched in the face anymore.
Ken Rideout
And Canelo's down there on his like Dr. horses dancing around playing golf. He's got a lot of interest outside of uh
Outside of boxing. But he also likes to spend money, so
Mike Lee
Yeah. Well, yeah, that'll always catch up, too. Especially Floyd, right?
Ken Rideout
You know what's funny? I had uh Darren Waller on the uh Oh, Floyd looks like he's in the [ __ ] badly now. Um, and he's taking exhibition fights. It looks like Floyd I I don't think he says no to a fight. Is there money? Like I think we're going to get down to like, hey, here's a fight for 100 bucks. Like he's fighting someone coming up here in the next couple of weeks in some. Yeah.
Mike Lee
Yeah. But then isn't he supposed to fight Pacquiao in a real match?
Ken Rideout
Oh, come like why are they doing this to us? Like
Mike Lee
I mean why' they do Tyson vers Jake Paul? It's like if people are going to watch and pay,
Ken Rideout
they're going to do it. I don't mind entertainment, but some there's a part of it that's sad. But the highlight of that Tyson Paul fight was when they interviewed Tyson. He had his ass out in the locker room.
You're like, "Guys, what are we doing here?" Guys like 60 years old.
Mike Lee
That was more exciting than the actual fight itself.
Ken Rideout
Dude, too funny. But um Darren Waller was on the show. What an incredible story. Kid goes to the Ravens. He's got a drug problem coming out of college. Fails all his drug tests. Long story short, gets kicked off the Ravens. goes home living with his parents. He's bagging groceries at Sprouts. Literally, that's his only job he can get. Goes back to the Raiders Ravens practice squad. He's running routes for RG3 in the in the pregame warming up. And after like three or four weeks on the practice squad, he's still Darren Waller.
They're just like they're they're they're over the failed drug test. They're pissed. He's but but he's an athlete, right? Gruden sees him warming up before the um before a game and he's like, "Who is that kid?" They're like, "Oh, it's Darren Waller." And you know when you're on practice squad, you're on waiverss. Raiders pick him up, starts the next five games for the Raiders or plays in the next five games, signs to the biggest contract in the history of the NFL for tight ends and then goes on to have like signs an 11 million contract, signs another one for $55 million.
And I ask him, yo, what did you do with the money? You're like, cuz you know, you're going from the league minimum and now you get a $2 million signing bonus, $1 million contract. He's like, I didn't do anything. I still live in the same house I had. I still was driving. I still drove the same car for like years cuz the only thing I've done recently is done some traveling.
But I'm like that's the message to all these kids is like you have to treat those paychecks and those contracts like
Just always hoping for the best, planning for the worst. If I get injured and I can't play again, can I how long can I live on this money for? If it isn't 50 years, okay, no problem. It's unusual if you could. What are you going to do for the rest of your life? You need to capitalize on that stardom and on the image that you're creating now in the sport to like learn a business, be a salesperson at Google, go sell some kind of sell a car, start a dealership, like set yourself up with using the platform you have now.
Set yourself up using the capital that you have now to build a career for yourself that capitalizes on who you are right now. Because if you don't, as you know, the minute that the lights go off and that's the last fight, like you said, no one's looking for Mike Lee the fighter anymore, but they're looking for Mike Lee the entrepreneur. But you can use the status you have right now as a fighter to become the entrepreneur and segue into the next chapter.
Mike Lee
That's really it. And that I think that's something a lot of people don't realize and something that I was fortunate enough to see and do.
Right. That's why I I started Soul. Um, and I started my wellness company uh right towards the end of my career because I knew and it I it ended up happening. I a lot of phone calls that I normally could have made weren't picked up anymore after I retired.
Ken Rideout
That's right.
Mike Lee
And it is what it is, right? But you living in LA hanging around movie stars, directors, all that. And there's a bunch of good people there, too. But it's like you're just not the same, right?
Ken Rideout
Yeah. When you're a fighter, they're like, "Hey, my friend Mikey's the world champion." And when you're an X fighter, they're like Mikey Lee. Never heard of him. Next,
Mike Lee
Right? Cuz there's always someone younger and hungrier like ready to take his place.
Ken Rideout
That's especially in a place like LA. Well, when you started getting ill with the Lyme disease, let's talk about that. What was happening and like how was it initially diagnosed and what like walk me through it.
Mike Lee
So, I started really getting sick in 2013. Um I was about like 12 13 fights in and I was just dealing with a lot of inflammation, headaches and then a lot of back issues and fatigue as well. And at the time you know we went to all these different doctors all over the country. Um I was diagnosed with ankylosing spondylitis at first which is a autoimmune disease that affects the spine. That was a misdiagnosis, but unfortunately I was on Humira and injecting myself with Humira and taking methotrexate for years and which only brought down my immune system made things worse.
Um I later was diagnosed with Lyme disease which we figured out that and then mass cell activation syndrome known as MCAS. Um that was the right diagnosis. The problem with most autoimmune diseases is they are misdiagnosed or undetected for years and years because in the traditional western medicine system right now, they're either surgery or pills, right? And so I was lucky enough to see some of the top doctors at Northwestern, Mayo, like they were bringing me around everywhere because I was out of the ring and I wanted to get back in.
There was a moment, it was interesting. I I was out of the ring. Um, this might have been in 2012, and I was dealing with really bad headaches, too. Never used to have headaches. And I didn't have like a really bad fight or anything that that kind of preceded that. I went to this place called the Diamond Headache Clinic, and I was in that hospital for I think like 10 days. And what they do is they kind of hook you up to all this medication and try to break the headache cycle, break the pain.
So, I'm literally in this hospital bed in this facility for like 7 days, right? And I'm watching my Subway commercials on TV. And it was like such a wild moment of like, what is happening? You know, I'm a young 25, maybe 26 years old at that time. Seeing my commercials pop up. I've got, you know, IVs hooked up to me. I'm scared. What's going on? I clawed my way back to uh a fight. I started getting better. And what I really started doing, and we'll we'll talk about kind of uh the company I started as a result, but what I really started doing was taking my health into my own hands.
Unfortunately, if you have autoimmune diseases, Lyme disease, whatever it may be, you you have to go to functional medicine doctors and you have to start taking your health into your own hands because at one point I was on eight different medications. And I just I knew number nine wasn't the answer for me. And so I dialed back everything that I did from sleep to stress to plant medicine. I started really looking at, okay, I know these tools and sometimes they work, sometimes they don't with a lot of side effects.
What else is there for me? And it's really how I kind of educated myself and discovered this world. And I I ended up getting back in the ring almost two years later. Um, I had my comeback fight on uh NBC Sports, national TV in in Philadelphia. I fought another undefeated fighter. um ended up getting a sixth round knockout. I broke his jaw and I remember um we went back to the dressing room after this and I should have been like on Cloud9, right? National TV, I was the co-main event, huge knockout, another undefeated fighter and I felt dead inside.
Like it was the first time in my career that I didn't feel that like adrenaline rush excitement. I felt like that was okay on to the next one. And the rest of my career after that just was never the same which culminated up to the world title fight of just years and fights of being like every other fight being like am I done? What am I doing? But the money kept coming,
The fame kept coming,
You know, hanging out with Mark Wahlberg on movie sets and like how do you and the purpose and how do you say no to this? It led me to starting um soul CBD and then now out of office and learning about cannabinoid CBD, THC, just other mechanisms that could help me with pain because I was straight up addicted to the tramadol and to the oxy. Like it took me a long time getting off that and lorazepam. Yep.
Um those are brutal drugs. The benzo are the worst. Took me a long time painful to get off of it. And it wasn't until I discovered like natural alternatives that it really kind of blew me away to where I was like, "Okay,
There's a time and place for Western medicine." Anybody that says that they'll just sage the disease away is crazy. But there is a huge aspect that Western medicine doesn't look at your mind, your spirit, your diet, your nutrition. And that's the world I had to dive into as well. And and I currently, you know, am in right now as I
Continue to work on my health and and get better and better.
Ken Rideout
So tell me about the Soul CBD company you started with your sister and is out of office and Soul CBD like they're under the same umbrella, right?
Mike Lee
Yeah, they're sister brands. So everything with Soul CBD is zero THC. So we have a lot of CBD products and then we also have non CBD products like we have products that help with sleep. We have magnesium or uh different adaptogens, we have neutropics, like a whole different suite of um different ingredients. And then out of office, which we felt is a great name for it, is is everything is THC.
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
Mike Lee
And we have a lot of people that love that brand because we have everything from micro dose, like smaller amounts all the way up to like 15 milligrams, all hemp derived, all um, you know, organic hemp here in the United States, third party verified. Like we do things the right way. And um, the brand started with my sister in her apartment uh, in 2018 as like a little side project. We got it started on our own and ended up taking off and we grew into eight figures and shipping to 46 different states nationwide.
And it's interesting now because now the business and our entire industry is under uh threat of being basically extinct. So
In November of last year, Mitch McConnell slipped a bill into the appropriations bill basically banning all federal hemp.
And his argument was that it was for safety and protection. What really was happening is,
Ken Rideout
Yeah, the government's going to protect you from your cell phone.
Mike Lee
Amen. This dude in its public record had the amount of alcohol and pharmaceutical lobbying money that he gets and his state gets is massive.
Ken Rideout
Yeah, it's crazy.
Mike Lee
So, his buddies at Big Bourbon and Big Alcohol in Kentucky and the pharmaceutical industry, they want to shut this down because this is a plant that's been growing for thousands of years and helping people. So,
Ken Rideout
You've gone from the most corrupt sport in boxing to the most corrupt business and trying to fight these lobbies and these dirty ass politicians. Like, yeah, no one's calling for the banning of hemp. There's not a person in this country that's like, "We need to ban the hemp." But there are lobbyists that want it banned. And it's just [ __ ] sad that this is the reality. It's like these people work for us. No one's asking for that. It should be illegal to just put in your own [ __ ] appropriation into a huge bill that just gets jammed through, which I don't think anything gets jammed through.
I think everyone's complicit and they're all like in some way, shape, or form getting paid or getting donations because yeah,
The donations are what drives everything on an in an election.
Mike Lee
You know, quite frankly, it's not something that you can patent. It's not a something that big pharma can come in and create um you know, the next GLP1, right? So, um, the government and lobbying dollars not going to be behind it. But to go from something that's helping veterans, exathletes, moms, dads, people with pain, with anxiety, with sleep, to get off this these opioids and all this crazy uh pharmaceutical stuff that really [ __ ] people up to go and completely abolish it is just so backwards.
Ken Rideout
Yeah, exactly.
Mike Lee
There needs to be regulation. We're all for that. Like like I said, everything we do at our company is thirdparty lab verified, GMP compliant, organic hemp farms. Like we do things the right way, but the FDA needs to come in and clean up a lot of the bad actors. Yeah.
But just like prohibition, like adults are adults. And I would argue there's no real
There's no Andrew Huberman is huge on there's no benefit to alcohol, man.
Ken Rideout
None,
Mike Lee
Right? And so cannabis and hemp like there are major benefits to it even though, you know, people can label it as a party drug. So, I'm obviously
Ken Rideout
Even if you do want to label it as a party drug, what's the difference between weed and alcohol? I I have no problem with either of them. Like, if you want to smoke weed, you should be allowed to smoke weed. Same with drinking. Like, hey, that's your business.
And I don't even think it's like I said, I don't think there's a person in the world that's like lobbying politicians. Please ban hemp or please ban alcohol. It's lobbyists and big corporate interests.
Mike Lee
Where were the marches? Where did you see the marches of people upset about hemp? You know,
Ken Rideout
Exactly. And if they were, they were probably f funded by the uh by some other lobby.
When's the last time you've seen an organic march that wasn't funded where there's a Oh, there's a big march downtown. It's just got announced. How the hell are there 2,000 signs printed in the same exact ink?
Right.
Mike Lee
It's crazy. And bricks stacked up.
Ken Rideout
It's It's madness. It's like we're living in a simulation. And if you point it out, you're a conspiracy theorist, a racist, and a Nazi. I'm like, "No, I'm like I'm I'm asking the question like h who printed the signs, where' they come from?"
Mike Lee
It's kind of sad. We're working with um lobbying groups and we're hopeful that we can do something by November because November 12th is when all this happens and the shutdown happens, whether it's an extension or a new bill or amendment. But being part of these conversations and lobbying groups and probably going to go out to Washington Washington DC and try to help some of these groups as well, talking to some senators,
You kind of see how dirty and shitty things are in Washington DC. Like I don't care if you're red or blue. It's just it's sad kind of the state and how much money affects it when you have once again everyday people who are taking something that is not addictive, not toxic. There's no toxicity levels to this. You can't overdose and die, right? Unlike alcohol, unlike Tylenol, unlike ibuprofen, that's all down the street.
And it's just asinine. And so, we're still fighting the good fight. We have a lot of products that are not THC that will still survive this, but um it's tough enough to grow a business with just your blood, sweat, and tears um all on your own and let alone then the government comes and kind of slaps you in the face.
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
So, I've noticed that even when I've been in LA recently, just in paying attention, it seems like dispensaries like even in like Venice, California, there were there were a bunch of dispensaries on the main drag. Now, they seem to all be going is the like weed industry like getting lumped up? Like it just seems like there were a bazillion dispensaries and weed brands and now it just seems like a ghost town alltime lows. I mean
It is right.
Mike Lee
I and it's not because of demand. It's really because the taxing system behind it and the Trump administration is
Said that they're pro hemp, you know, pro cannabis in general. We'll see if things kind of go through, but um you know alcohol sales for instance are being eaten up right now and at alltime low. And a big part of that is because the younger generation is turning to alternatives like cannabis drinks. Yeah. Like we sell a really good 2.5 and a 5 milligram uh THC beverage. And it's a nice little kind of like replacement. It's like a replacement from you know that extra drink so to speak.
And you know whether all these liquor stores are reporting that anywhere from 10 to 15% of their sales now are THC beverages.
Ken Rideout
I promise you that the sales numbers for the alcohol decline are going to like exponentially ex increase to the downward. My kids, I have a 16year-old and a 15year-old. I have never I've told this story before. I've never once heard them talk about anyone drinking at a party. They've never had a drink at a party. When I was 16 years old, like we would drink, not like we were raging, but like that was what we did on the weekends.
We like we drink at the park. We drink and go to the I played football. We'd go to the basketball games. Drink. Let's go drink and go to the Let's go drink and watch the baseball game. My kids don't drink. And And I've said this to the other parents in the neighborhood. We live in Brentwood, Tennessee. I said, "Hey, have you?" And I'm really close with a lot of the parents obviously. And I'm like, "Hey, have you ever heard of these kids, any of the kids drinking?" They're like, "No, never." And I'm like, "Did you drink when you were in high school?" Cuz they're from Tennessee.
They're like, "Yeah, we drank like normal like you know, like normal kids. Every weekend we would like someone would have a party, we'd meet down at some, you know, these kids, they don't drink. And I think that more and more adults are becoming aware of like Huberman would say this, the right amount of alcohol really is zero, whether you like to hear that or not. And I just had um I just had David Malar on here who's an ultrarunner, recovering drug addict, hardcore drug addict, and he's studying medicine.
He wants to be a doctor. He says that they're still in the textbook right now today that they're teaching doctors that the appropriate healthy amount of alcohol is two drinks per day.
Mike Lee
Jesus,
Ken Rideout
14 drinks a week. Come on, man. He's then writes to the professor like, "Yo, I think that this is a mistake." And here's all the studies suggesting it, but it says it in the textbook. And the doctor is kind of like, "Yeah, it just takes a little while for like the textbooks to catch up to the to the literature and blah blah blah blah." But the point is, I think that that snowball is going to continue to gain momentum and get bigger of like there's no benefit to drinking.
All you have to do is, and I'm not like pounding the table and telling don't people don't drink. Like if you're an adult, like you're only getting to run through this simulation once. Do whatever the [ __ ] you want. Like
There is no denying if you wear a Whoop or any fitness tracker, if you sleep for a week or two without alcohol, then have a couple drinks before you go to bed and tell me what happens to your resting heart rate, your heart rate variability. Again, I don't care what anyone else does, but if you think that that's adding to your lifespan or adding to a healthy lifespan, you're [ __ ] lying to yourself. And yeah, okay, maybe it relaxes you. If that's the case, you probably need to do some mental health work more than mask your feelings with alcohol.
And I'm like guilty of it myself. So, you know, in in the past, but I just think you're going to continue to see that. And I'm not suggesting like, oh, weed's the answer. But
If you're going to make alcohol available for people to deal with their um, you know, to to to treat it, whether they treat it as a party drug or a therapeutic tool, no problem. But what's the why vilify THC? Like I just don't get it. Same exact type of experience. Different experience, but same type of like end result. You're trying to like
Get relief, whatever that looks like to you.
Mike Lee
I know. But at what cost, right? So I And I if people want to drink, they can drink. Like I'm not here to demonize alcohol, but like you said, it's like why why go after THC? And I it's all because of money and lobbying. I mean, we've done studies, like small cohort studies. We took about 100 people that all had Whoop bands and gave them our sleepy gummies
And it was incredible. We had like over 85% of them that had better uh REM scores, better deep sleep scores.
Ken Rideout
Really
Mike Lee
Like attributable.
Ken Rideout
What's in the sleepy gummies?
Mike Lee
So we have two different kinds. Um one is uh sleepy on the soul side and that has melatonin. Um it has CBD and it has CBN in it.
CBN is a cannabinoid that helps with sleep. None of those are psychoactives.
Ken Rideout
I think that's the one that you sent me. The purple ones.
Yeah, purple. I love them.
Yeah, they're great. Right.
Mike Lee
Yeah.
And then we have our out of office side which is THC and that has blends that are um better for sleep on the THC side like that has indica um that has CBN CBD for people that like to get a little bit kind of extra punch.
Ken Rideout
Do you ever have people like try the out of office? cuz I think that one of the dangers of edible THC and I I've said this like I've been in dispensaries before out of curiosity and I've said to the guys like why package it to look like candy? It pisses me off. I'm like dude this is so obviously marketed towards children like I don't need if I'm buying THC edibles I don't need it to look like Skittles. I don't need it to basically be starburst with a couple different letters but it's packaged the same way.
Like don't be so [ __ ] irresponsible and you won't have people coming after you. Market just like you would like a a supplement or or a cigarettes. Put a warning on it. Like don't be a [ __ ] child. We know what we're buying. Stop trying to make it look like something it's not. It's just pisses me off.
That's exactly it.
Mike Lee
It's like we're back in third grade and you know one or two kids in the class ruin it for everybody else. And that's what you're seeing. So there needs to be regulation.
Ken Rideout
The point I wanted to get to is if you don't know what you're doing and you take too much edibles, you are in for a very very bad experience. Like a lifechanging bad experience. You're not going to die, but you are about to have like several hours of very very uncomfortable [ __ ] situation.
And that scares me because like if you knowingly if I if I knowingly take 10 or 20 milligrams of THC and I'm like, "Oh no. Oh, I'm an adult. I know. Oh my god, I have got to like lock myself in my bedroom and just ride it out.
Mike Lee
Ride it out.
Ken Rideout
But do you guys ever have now that you're in the THC? Now that you're now that you're in the THC business, I'm just curious. Do you ever have people call up and be like, "You son of a [ __ ] I took three of you out of offices and my husband hasn't been a crazy person for the last 12 hours."
Mike Lee
Not really because um actually not at all. A lot of our products start really low and work their way up.
Ken Rideout
But I'm just wondering if someone ever took too much and was like, "Yo, I'm on a spaceship and I want to get off."
Mike Lee
We've had a couple like a couple reviews or a couple people email in and be like, "Oh my god, that was way too strong for me." But then you kind of like you, you know, what we like to do is this. We like to do a really good blend of THC and CBD, so it's not quite as harsh. And I think that entourage effect really helps. So our single, for example, 1.5 milligs of THC, 15 millig of CBD. So, it kind of blunts that THC a little bit and gives you like a nice mild buzz.
So, for the majority of our products
Aren't going to make you feel like you're out of control or too high cuz I have that same exact worry, Matt, like all the time. Terrible experience.
It's terrible, right? And so, we really wanted to lean in on these micro dose uh options for people like to the point where more reviews come from people saying like, "Oh, I actually needed like two or three kind of like really feel the effects."
Ken Rideout
How's the sales in THC versus CBD?
Mike Lee
Much higher for us.
Ken Rideout
CBD. THC.
Mike Lee
THC. Really? Which is
Ken Rideout
Because that's a new relatively new offering.
Mike Lee
Which is why
Ken Rideout
Were you surprised?
Mike Lee
I was a little bit surprised cuz we started the brand with zero THC brand, right? I was
I was I really only started with CBD and maybe CBN, CBG, but never the THC family. Um, and I was getting drug tested, you know, before fights, too.
Which, by the way, it's wild and ridiculous that you can't have THC in your system as a fighter. Like, how is it performance-enhancing? Anything that's helping you with anxiety?
That's a whole another story.
Ken Rideout
You can have alcohol in your system, though.
Mike Lee
Yeah. Well, exactly. Exactly. You can alcohol. Yeah. But regardless, I wasn't a big THC user. Um, but then we launched the micro dose THC and really changed the business. started taking off, which is what makes this federal hemp ban so brutal for us from business day. Of course, like we're
I mean, listen, it sounds corny, sounds cliche, but like I'm a fighter. I've gotten knocked down. I've gotten back up.
I'm in a tough fight now, except I'm fighting the US government. And unless some things change, I'm going to get knocked down in November. But, you know, we're working on different options to get back up.
Ken Rideout
You're the first thing I thought about when I saw that ban. I'm like, what a silly [ __ ] ban. And the first thing I thought about is like, geez, I hope these guys are going to be all right. But you guys have other product offerings that aren't hemp based,
Mike Lee
Right? And we're actually coming out with a functional line, too. So, we're launching that in about a month. And none of that is any hemp. So, no CBD, no THC. Um, we have a mood gummy that has saffron. Nice.
Um, we've got a calm anxiety gummy that has like atheanine and u different adaptogens. Then we have a sleep gummy. And then a uh focus gummy. Really, really good focus gummy. It's like one of my favorite products right now. Uh it's got a little bit of caffeine, but it's also got some lines mane and just some really good natural ingredients for people that don't want to be addicted to the coffee.
Um so we are launching kind of the more wellness functional line that for now, knock on wood, the US government is not going to come after.
Ken Rideout
Nice. What about um do you guys offer any other products other than consumables? Like do you guys do anything in skin care? Um any kind of other like cuz I know CBD comes in uh uh moisturizers, creams and stuff. Do you guys do anything else like that?
Mike Lee
Yeah, we have a rapid relief cream. Um it's funny. I sent that to a bunch of different buddies of mine. So
Ken Rideout
Subconsciously I think that's what I was thinking of cuz I remember and you even sent it to my friend Abdi Abdirahman, the five-time US Olympic runner.
Mike Lee
Yeah. Yeah, that's right.
Ken Rideout
I've used that the it's like one of them was mega strong though like but was good cuz I liked it. I used to use it on my uh calf muscles if they would get really tight. Yeah. Awesome, man.
Mike Lee
It's not one of our bests sellers, but our pain cream is so efficacious, man. I I used it throughout my training camp. I I had a bunch of buddies that played in the NFL, like big lineman dudes who would use it, loved it. Uh there's no THC in it.
Just kind of CBD, menthol, eucalyptus, bunch of other stuff.
Ken Rideout
That's what I liked really was the eucalyptus and the menthol like really like brought some heat to the area.
Mike Lee
Yeah. So, that'll stay alive. But, I mean, that actually just ran out of stock recently. It was so popular. Um, but we'll just have to pivot into categories like that.
Ken Rideout
Nice. Nice. Dude, did you guys end up raising any money for that or did you guys bootstrap the whole thing?
Mike Lee
We bootstrapped until we took on one angel investment. Um, and then I actually bought that investor out entirely. So, we ended up retaking over the company and um, so yeah, now it's just entirely a family business.
Ken Rideout
Nice. Oh, that's awesome. And um, on the personal side, you got married?
Mike Lee
Got a 2 and 1/ halfyear-old uh, little boy named Luca. Uh,
Ken Rideout
For you, dude. I love seeing your content with your son.
Mike Lee
Yeah, it's awesome. How actually, how do you think about that with the internet? Do you worry? I worry sometimes about putting my kids out there, you know, being [snorts]
Ken Rideout
Posting my kids on my internet
On my social media. My kids now are at the age where I can ask them if they want to be on, right? Cuz the youngest just turned 11. But no, it's something I think about, but at the end of the day, you know, what am I trying to hide? Like, these are my [ __ ] kids. I'm proud of them. I One thing that I will say,
Mike Lee
Like their protection.
Ken Rideout
Yeah. One thing I will tell you is that I hate hate pet peeve is people like being exploitative with their own kids like we look at my kids. I post pictures of my kids when I'm training with them and stuff but I have to ask them typically. I mean not every single time but my wife listens to this podcast so if I'm being inaccurate I'll hear about it but I try to be very cognizant and conscious of their opinion especially with my 16year-old daughter. But for the most part like she liked she you know she it's novel to her right her friends like think of me as like an influencer right they like but yes there's a fine line you don't want to be like too like I said exploitative and in terms of though a bigger concern is children having access to social media and phones themselves and the internet I mean just think about this when you're younger than me but when I
Was a kid if you wanted to watch porn one kid in the neighborhood might have had an old VCR tape that you needed a VCR player, a gigantic TV. Like, you weren't just like, "Holy [ __ ] I mean, like, dude, until I think I had sex with a woman, like I was like, what's going on down there?" Like, I literally I was like, I think this is what's going on, but like there was so many unknowns.
Now, the thing that makes me uncomfortable for children now and for the future generations is this [ __ ] is so readily available that I I mean, I have three boys. I have said to them because I've, you know, they all have phones, but they're very restrictive restricted, which I'll talk about in a minute, but I have gone through the history and seen them looking at porn. Someone Googled from one of the phones, naked girls, you know what I mean? And then I'm like, who did this?
And there was one phone and it was like hard to prove, but they were all like paranoid. And um but because of that, like it's normal kids stuff, but what I had to say to them is like, and this is goes for all kids, like guys, listen to me. And I have like serious conversations with you sometimes. I said, "I'm not trying to make you uncomfortable, but I know it's going to." But I'm just telling you, when you get to the point where you're having this kind of interactions with women, like this is not how people have sex.
Like did this what you're seeing in a porn video is not the way that you like treat women. Like without getting too descriptive with them, I'm like, "Look, when you have someone that your partner's with and you're both into something, whatever you whatever you're into, you're into. This is not in general how you meet a stranger and like this is not the way it really goes. This this is this is like watching a an action movie
And thinking now you're Superman and you can jump off the roof. This is an act. This is actors.
It's uncomfortable for them to hear. It's uncomfortable for me to talk to them about. But the truth is
The internet makes everything so accessible. Like
My wife was going through one of their like AI searches recently and I'm just like oh god. It's just like, so now all of the apps on the phone are turned off. And it's a fine line, right? You don't want to be like protecting them like they're [ __ ] fabric eggs, but at the same time, I'm like, they just don't need access to some of this info.
So, they have most of the apps turned off so they can't access very limited access to social media cuz I don't want to be a monster,
But I'm also, like I said in a social media post recently, like I'm raising my kids the way I think I should. You raise your kids the way you think you should. Like I'm not out here trying to [ __ ] recruit super strict parents, but I'm also not looking for input from people I don't know. Like I'm doing what I think is right.
Mike Lee
Yeah. And and my guy's in diapers, so thank God I don't have to worry about that. But what what's scary to think for me is like I mean there's a good chance that my son never drives a car, which is wild. And
Ken Rideout
My middle son is 13 years old. He's like, "We have a golf cart." He's like, "I don't want to drive." Refuses to drive it. Like literally refuses.
Mike Lee
Crazy. It's kind of scary to think what type of devices and access he'll have in 13 15 years.
Ken Rideout
And to be fair, I don't I would would you rather be on the [ __ ] road with if there's 20 cars and 10 of them are being driven by someone under 20 years old, would you rather those be self-driving Teslas or the kids?
Mike Lee
We have Whimos in Austin everywhere. I [ __ ] love it.
I do too.
It's so much safer.
Ken Rideout
My daughter's getting her driver's license in 2 or 3 weeks. She'll be 16 in July. I just leased uh the entry level Tesla with the full self-driving every bell and whistle that you can get. And you know, initially she's like, I I want to drive. And I said, perfect. You can do you can drive this car, but if you get nervous or you get in a jam, cuz I remember driving myself, you get in a like nervous situation in a city or at an intersection and you're not sure what the rule is here.
If that happens, you can push the button as long as you put in the destination that you're going
And you're not on the brake. You can push the button and the car will drive itself. And and dude, it gets better every day because it's training itself with AI. So with the self Tesla self-driving, if if if anyone hasn't tried it,
It is it's like magic.
You can sit in the car. I mean, I wouldn't advise someone go to sleep, but you could literally sit in the car and get a shitload of work done and this Tesla will drive you wherever you got to go. M I've never seen it made a make a mistake in the like couple of months that we've owned it. I've never had to have like when my wife had intervene or something cuz now she drives it all the time instead of her big giant SUV unless the whole family's in it.
Mike Lee
Yeah.
Ken Rideout
But for a new driver, I almost feel like you should be credited on your insurance.
Mike Lee
Sure.
Ken Rideout
Because that thing is going to have far less accidents than a new driver.
Mike Lee
Yeah. And it's only getting better.
Ken Rideout
Every day it gets better, right? Cuz it's being trained by every other Tesla model in the world. It's just the stuff the advancements are coming are are incredible but also super super intimidating and scary. The idea of like 10 15 years like robots doing everything build building a house where they just show up and 3D printed like
I don't know maybe I'm crazy but
Mike Lee
But what's going to be cool is the advancements in medicine.
Oh right,
Ken Rideout
Dude. These AI models I think are going to figure out a cure for cancer, especially when you add in like crisper, gene editing, all the stuff that David Sinclair is working on and the guys up at Harvard and all these like longevity clinics. Listen, when I talk to like my in-laws, for instance, about this, they're like I think they're like sc I'm like I'm convinced that like people like you and I might live to 200.
Mike Lee
Sure.
Ken Rideout
And I know that like the older generation might be like, "Oh, you're crazy." But I'm like, "Why not?"
Sure. I would have said it was crazy that Elon Musk would be launching a rocket every single day, putting satellites in orbit, and then landing the rocket, launching it again, back, forth, back forth, or that a car could drive me anywhere I want to go and I don't have to to touch the wheel.
What I really want to see happen is those new um the new Tesla robo taxi.
They say they're going to be like 30 grand. You can buy one and just like turn it loose on the street. I don't even want it for that. I just want to have a 30 I just want to have like imagine if you had a Whimo that was like 30 to 50 grand and it was just for your p your family use so that every time the kids had sports practice anytime they had a game within a like 4hour radius I could be like guys get in the car the
Mike Lee
Or they used to order the car
Ken Rideout
Tesla when it's when it's when you're not in your te robo taxi it's out working and when you need it you're like yeah robo taxi pick up the kids over here take them over here.
Mike Lee
Oh really? Oh, I didn't know that,
Ken Rideout
Dude. I don't even think it has a steering wheel,
Mike Lee
But Oh,
Ken Rideout
It's a rootex. You buy it and like theoretically, I think the the I think that the thought process is someone would buy like 10 of them and turn loose their own fleet.
Mike Lee
Maybe they say Airbnb
Ken Rideout
And they pull up onto a charging pad, wireless triumph charging pad and park on it and it charges that way and it when it it knows when it needs to charge and drives to a local charging station.
Mike Lee
Yeah,
Imagine.
Ken Rideout
Great. That'd be great.
I want one just to drive the kids around.
Yeah, exactly. Any parent out there with adolescent kids will tell you like one of the most difficult things is driving kids around. I hate being an Uber driver. I don't want to drive myself anywhere.
Mike Lee
Yeah.
But but who you going to trust? Most valuable asset who's driving them. So
Ken Rideout
That's right. Like you said, if you've taken a Whimo or been in a self-driving car, you know they're pretty flawless. And human error is the cause of most accidents.
Mike Lee
I do feel weird in them, though. I'm not going to lie.
Ken Rideout
Oh yeah. I think it's like anything.
I got to get over it a little. I'm sure the people that took the early commercial airplane flights felt nervous, too.
Mike Lee
Yeah.
Ken Rideout
Right. Think about that.
Mike Lee
Yeah, it's true.
Ken Rideout
Well, Mikey, I really uh appreciate you coming here. I love you, brother. You are uh much more than a fighter to me. You're my uh entrepreneurial hero. You're doing it all. Successful dad, family man, entrepreneur, world champion fighter. You've done it. You're living a life. And uh I'm waiting to see you on the uh paddle tournament. But when you're ready to step up to the big leagues, I do have a ringer in town here. That's my main pickle. That's my main paddle sport, ringer. And that's Eric Decker.
Mike Lee
Okay.
Ken Rideout
If you see Eric Decker play paddle, I'm like, he played uh baseball at Minnesota and football and then obviously played in the NFL. But when you see this kid on the pickle court, I'm like, how is he beating me sohandedly? A super athlete.
Mike Lee
Next time I come out, we got to play.
Ken Rideout
Yeah, you got to play him now. I got to see like, let's go. I'm ready to make like bets. betting on like uh raceh horses.
Mike Lee
Yeah.
Ken Rideout
Well, again, Mikey, thanks for coming and doing this, man. Really appreciate you. And um thanks thanks everyone for tuning in. Check him out on uh Instagram. His business is called Soul CBD and Out of Office. Awesome guy. Awesome cause. Mikey Lee. Mike Lee on Instagram. What's the official one?
Mike Lee
Official Mike Lee.
Ken Rideout
Official Mike Lee. Check him out. Thanks for being with us, guys. Boom. All right, guys. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. Please take a quick minute to subscribe to the podcast wherever you're listening. This is a new show, so subscribing makes a huge difference. Please also take a minute to give it a review and leave a comment on Apple Podcast and on Spotify. You can also subscribe and leave a comment on YouTube. Again, this is really important for us, especially now since we're just getting started.
Ken Rideout
Thanks a lot for being with us and we'll see you next
Key takeaways
- Lee’s father shaped his discipline, but Lee wants his son to know he can stop when a sport becomes dangerous.
- Fighting through a broken rib showed Lee the cost of ignoring pain.
- Lee says the pressure to make his father proud helped him persist through training and injuries.
- The Caleb Plant fight made Lee recognize how illness and weight cutting had affected his performance.
- After boxing, Lee built products around CBD, THC, and other ingredients while continuing to focus on health.
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