Episode · Feb 11, 2026 · 1 hr 50 min
From Broke to “Fancy Like”
with Walker Hayes
Walker Hayes is a country songwriter from Mobile whose hit song Fancy Like arrived after years of writing and working other jobs.
“the easy life, you just don't grow.”
Summary
Walker Hayes describes growing up in Mobile, marrying his high school sweetheart, and spending years writing songs while trying to support a family of six. He talks about working at Costco, nearly quitting music, and feeling that a secure job was draining him. After he stopped drinking, his wife encouraged him to keep writing. Their stillborn daughter Oakley's death, alongside a medical emergency for his wife, changed how he understood family and grief.
Later, he and Ken discuss how Fancy Like reached a wide audience after Walker and his daughter made a TikTok dance. He describes the pressure to follow a hit, earning money from touring and side businesses, raising six children, and making time for sobriety, family, and songwriting. Walker says the song did not make him feel more settled, and that success does not remove the daily work of marriage, parenting, or staying sober.
Show notes
Walker Hayes wasn't an "overnight success."
He was a songwriter for two decades. A dad of six. Clocking in at Costco at 4AM. Drinking. Burning out. Still writing anyway.
In this episode, Walker talks about what it really looked like before "Fancy Like", the years where bagels felt like a luxury, security felt like a trap, and quitting felt like the responsible move.
Then we go to the hardest day of his life: losing his daughter Oakley on the same day he was supposed to perform on TV, and watching his wife fight to survive. Walker tells the truth about grief, rage, and the moment he realized he was about to make it worse.
This is a conversation about sobriety, purpose, family, and what success does and doesn't fix.
Transcript
Made from YouTube's automatic captions and lightly corrected, so a few words and names may be off. Click a time to play the video from there.
Ken Rideout
Walker Hayes, welcome to the show.
Walker Hayes
Thanks for having me.
Ken Rideout
Thank you for doing this. I feel like uh I feel like I'm more masculine just being around you. You're like so much so much more of a man than me. Hunting, country singing.
Walker Hayes
We do some things. But we both bow hunt. We made that connection. So,
Ken Rideout
Well, I've never actually shot anything with my bow. Although, although I will tell you, I did go hunting for the first time one year ago in Maui. I went to a place called Maui Nui Venison and they harvest wild axis deer. First time I ever shot a rifle from a side by side. Boom. Axis deer 160 ft. Yeah.
Walker Hayes
Shot like right in the
Dude. Look at you.
Ken Rideout
I missed about 25 after that, but beginner's luck. Hit the first one. Shot a deer. It was very mixed emotions.
Walker Hayes
Oh yeah. Yeah.
Ken Rideout
I walked up on that thing. I'm like, dude, it's a big life.
It looks like my dog. Like I have a wy mariner about the same a little bit smaller, but
Walker Hayes
It was not something that I was like
Ken Rideout
Would do willy-nilly like I'm just going to shoot a deer. I was like yo, but I told the guys I'm like, "Dude, we have to eat the whole thing. I have to eat everything on this or I'm not going to feel good about this."
Walker Hayes
Dude, I have a similar experience and I can relate to the, you know, not doing a ton of manly stuff. I I grew up just in on a little culde-sac in Spring Hill, not not in any woods or anything. But when I started dating my wife, her dad, big hunter guy. So he taught me any anything hunting, fishing, uh woodworking, manly related, I learned from him. My dad was a realtor. He was a dentist, but he just they had a hunting camp and stuff. So, but similar experience.
When I was 17, he put me in a tree stand, taught me how to shoot a bucket, then took me to a hunting spot, tinpoint walks out, blasted it, walked right up to it, and just almost started crying. It was just a very
I don't know how to explain it, but I I was the same as you. I was like, "Dude, we got to use every in like this is some things, dad, you know, and I I remember laying there that night being like I feel like I just became a man, but I'm I'm emotional about it, you know? And so I I I don't just like we're we're especi we have a respect for it, you know? We like we we're not just we don't just hunt just like a shoot, you know, whatever." But um yeah, dude, it's funny when you all everything you just described.
I I'm a little timid to tell because I'm like I don't want everybody to know. I got emotional, but I do remember lying in the hunting camp bunk that night going that was a large animal, man. You know, like that thing's been alive maybe five years. You know, it's a old deer. But yeah, I love it, man. I love being in the woods. And um I'm grateful that I have a a father-in-law. He teaches my kids everything. And I I feel like I constantly relearn like how to skin it and all those things.
So yeah, he's he's he he would laugh when I say this, but he he's he's made a a country boy out of me. I was not I was not that before I met him.
Ken Rideout
I think when people don't have that kind of emotional feeling when they take a life and even if you're going to eat the whole thing and it's for survival, not to have some kind of feelings about it. I think that that, you know, it's a bit sociopathic not to like feel something when you take a life. But it's funny you say that. My my my wife's father, my father-in-law is a big like woodworker. He made a boat just like a rowboat. Like gorgeous. Like they sold it for like $10,000.
He donated and they gave it to a charity. Someone paid $10,000 to hang it in their house. It was gorgeous. Like real woodworking.
And he's into hunting. And when I first met my wife, we went to visit them and in the winter they lived in Virginia and we went to stay with them for Christmas and he was like, "Hey, we're going to go ski shooting." And I was like, "Oh, okay, cool." And I'm thinking to myself, like, I played football and hockey in college. I boxed. I'm like, I'm going to I'm going to kill everyone at this. I'm going to be awesome.
First shot they show groups of three. Boom, boom, I hit two out of three. I'm like, "Oh, I'm going to I feel I feel bad. I'm going to I'm going to kill them." I missed every single shot for every single one to the point where they would throw it and I was just like bang bang bang. I wasn't even trying. I was like I'm so humiliated. I have to get out of here. And then I was like I'm going to learn how to shoot this damn gun if it does the last thing I do.
Walker Hayes
That's addicting though. Did you figure it out eventually?
Ken Rideout
Yeah. You know I like how to like kind of lead it and spray the bullets as you're like kind of moving to pass it.
Yeah.
Walker Hayes
Dude, honestly just there's a lot. We're going to have a fun conversation because again same thing there like at first me and my father-in-law were maybe in somewhat of like a compet you know it was like
Ken Rideout
I think that's normal like alpha guys I'm like you know as crazy as it sounds you like hey I'm a guy too like no one's going to tell you what to do
Walker Hayes
But at some point I I'm just going to learn from you like you know how to do these things and we we have he he's he's like my dad you know now but yeah man bird hunting I mean we We we dove hunted this year and I and I still it gets in my head like I remember what I learned the last time but it takes me a second to trust it like no pass it. I had a really good hunt or two this year. But I I tell you what, man.
If I if I could just do that stuff kind of like he he's retired. I'm ready to do that like whenever. It It is something just It's awesome being with my boys out there and my daughters and my wife like the go going to their hunting camp. We we may look at like kind of a half and half thing ASAP because I'm I'm I'm ready to I'm ready to do that. And then I'm like, dude, I can be I can be Doug, you know, when I have grandkids, like I need to learn this stuff.
Yeah. I want to teach I want to teach them how to shoot ski, you know, and I'm like, I'm not even that good at it right now. So,
Yeah, that that kind of stuff excites me.
Ken Rideout
Where did you grow up?
Walker Hayes
So, I grew up in Mobile and uh just kind a nice regular neighborhood, McGregor Court, like literally a mile away from my wife. and we went to the same high school from prek on. And I lived like a mile away from my school. So I really didn't go, you know, far like my whole life. I went to some basketball camps maybe as far as like North Carolina. We went snowking out west maybe five or six times during Marty Gro, but I mean that was it. Like I I grew up in a little bubble, you know,
Ken Rideout
Mobile the deep south to to people. I grew up in Boston in the inner city Boston and like I have a two brothers both like career like lifelong drug addicts. One was in and out of prison. I was a guard at the prison he was in like
We were in the city like like I didn't live in a house until I was like 40 years old. We lived in a house for two always in apartments cuz then I moved to New York for 20 years.
We live and then eventually when I got when I had my fourth child we moved to a house in the outskirts of New York and Westchester County. But I didn't know any like I didn't when I tell you I knew nothing. I mean obviously I could change a light bulb and do basic stuff but I wasn't going to be like oh the boiler's down. Go take a look Ken. Like I don't even try. Matter of fact if we get furniture from IKEA or I had a squat rack delivered from Rogue.
I hate putting stuff together. I leave it there long enough. I swear to you my wife puts it together herself. She's like oh I have to go to Home Depot to get a bigger ratchet to put the squat rack together.
Walker Hayes
She's just like we're the same human. We were like I did. I promise you I same we we have the rogue rack we have you know new house new furniture my son one of my sons very engineer personality it's it's him and Laney I mean they've they put together every chair in the back I just look at the box I'm like I'll get it you know later
Ken Rideout
I'm just thinking a kid from Mobile and we're going to get into how everything came about but just reflecting back you marry a high school sweetheart everyone knows you from town I know you studied music. But just to think for a minute looking back like here's this like big giant I know nothing of country music. When I moved here, guy came up to me at the governor's club where we live and was like, "Hey, what's up?" I had a a show a boxing show about fighting with this guy Teddy Atlas and this guy comes over like, "Hey, I'm a big fan.
Walker Hayes
Big guy." Yeah.
Ken Rideout
And he walks away and the waitress is like, "Yo, you know who that is, right?" I'm like, "No idea." And they're like, "That's Jelly Roll." And I This is before anyone knew him cuz we would go out to dinner and like people wouldn't even say hello to him. We went to the WWE once, sat in the front row and like two people asked to take his picture. Two years later, I flew on a private jet with him from LA and he had 10 security guards with him.
It was like that.
But what I was getting at is just to think where you were and all the people that knew you in Mobile to look at you now like I know who you are and I'm not in the country music scene. So like do you ever reflect and just go like, "Holy [ __ ] I did it."
Walker Hayes
Um, you know, I don't know. I had such a unique story and um I I definitely I I will say I kind of do that now with Yeah. with the for for the first time. And I I think part of that is honestly it's it's probably me, let's just face it being on the back night, you know, this is like I I've lost my dad. My my kids are 10 and older now. You know, they're 10 to 20. So I'm I'm I'm like kind of at that bend in the road probably on the on the other side of the bend you you know and so I'm looking at my phone sometimes at the memories and I and I'm definitely my family and my wife we're at a phase where things are maybe they're calming down enough to where you you take time and you're like whoa we went to the Grammy like Laney like the same like the same couple you know that that that
Was in your Honda Civic at 18 driving around Mobile like wondering what lies ahead. That was like that. There's a picture of us at at the Houston rodeo, you know, with with my kids on stage or, you know, you know, here's us at selling out this Red Rocks, you know, and and uh like I remember when I opened for somebody in Red Rock and I remember when I said I'd love to go to Red Rocks, you know, and so so we're we're definitely at a reflective phase where a lot of especially what's happened to us in the last five years, it's kind of surreal like it It it's I it would I think it would surprise people to know.
I I even look back at the the fancy like moment and I and I just go it's almost not real. It's almost out of body. It's like what what happened? Because you know for me that happened after six kids. I mean that that that happened after um
Ken Rideout
How about working at Costco?
Walker Hayes
Yeah. I mean, I That's That's the thing, you know, like like right now, one of those trends is like what you were doing in 2016 to Dude, I I was working at Costco in 2016. And
Ken Rideout
We're going to get That's crazy.
Walker Hayes
I know. And And I I was getting sober that year, too. I was I was I was no days sober in 2016 thinking about, you know, trying. I tried before. So, it's weird. I don't ever look at it and go, "We did it." I almost I almost look at it and I'm like, "That happened to us." Because I I just, man, I'm a very I'm a very just in the- moment guy, you know? I My favorite song is the one I'm writing today. You know, I I I I really really And you you know this as a dad, I try to focus on my kid, each one of them.
And that's hard, you know, with six. It's like if my one's wanting to do my hair, I'm like, "Focus, Walker. Just focus on Lockxley." And she's she's putting your hair in a ponytail and just respond, you know, like look at her in the face and and hug her. And I and but I'm so ADD that I'm like, "But there's this idea, you know, and she'll and Lockxley will be like, "Dad, focus." You know, and and I just try to be in the moment. So, yeah, when I I don't look back and go, "We did it." I definitely look back and I'm just like, what?
H how how does this happen to me? You know what I mean? And and even to the to the stuff with Laney, man, I gotta admit 16-year-old me was not was not Mr. voted most likely to to to last in a relationship. Like I I I was I was voted to be a dead beat. like just I don't know the course that God has taken our our life on it never ceases to amaze me cuz it doesn't I was one of those kids where my mom was always like can't wait for you to have kids cuz they're going to pay you back you know and then I look at my kids and I'm like they're amazing.
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
Walker Hayes
They're they're smart. Like we talk we hang I work I work out with my son Chapel every day. Like my my my 18-year-old son we we go to the gym. We go, we work out together and we talk about, you know, whatever he's into. And I'm honestly just sitting there going, man, I wish I would have talked to my dad when I was 18, but I was scared of my dad. The course of my life is pretty I definitely wake up, I'm like, I don't I don't understand.
I don't know,
You know, I don't know why we get to experience this now. Um, but yeah,
Ken Rideout
I I kind of knew you were going to say that and I just want to tell you like you should take a minute because the fact that I know who you are and and I first got turned on to you like when when you started working with Athletic cuz I've been friends with Bill for a while and when they told me I'm like oh country guy, you know, like I mean I didn't know who Jelro was. I just I just matter of fact I went to a concert once with Jelly Roll and we're talking to this guy in cowboy hat backstage at a Nickelback concert and I'm like as the guy walks away and Jelly would laugh about this [ __ ] cuz I was like who was that guy?
He's like, "Come on, man. That's Jason Elden."
Walker Hayes
I'm like, "You didn't know Aldine?"
Ken Rideout
I'm not trying to be funny. I just So, point is, I just I just didn't know. It's not an insult. But when I got getting to know and like researching you and looking, I'm like,
"This is a good guy who's had a tremendous success, who like came up the hard way, like you said, drinking, working at Costco at 36, chasing the dream. Chasing the dream." And just for context, not to make this about me,
At 40, around 40, I got sober. At 45, I was like competing a little bit in in endurance events, but at 45 I started to really lean in and at 52 won some big races like across the Gobi Desert and and started to get some attention and occasionally people would re very occasionally, but it would if it happened in front of my kids, I would always feel like, oh my god. And once in a blue moon, I'll say to my wife like,
"Can you believe the life that I've created for myself? I was a mediocre finance idiot." And even stratosphere, but just thinking back of creat. So when I look at you and I look at your Instagram and your social media feed, I'm like, this is number one, a good solid guy.
And also, I'm like, dude, this guy is a sick athlete. I'm watching you jump on your trampoline. I'm like, what the hell? This guy is an athlete. Like, so we're going to get into all that, but I just hope that you take a minute to recognize like, damn, I did. You did it. like you are on the scene, man. It's I'm I'm proud to know you.
Walker Hayes
Thanks, bro. Thank you.
Ken Rideout
So you you mar you married your high school sweetheart. You moved to Nashville. Like yeah, I'm going to go do country music.
You know how many people come here and like I want to do music. Lots of people love music but very few.
Walker Hayes
It's like a realtor.
Ken Rideout
There's a lot of realtors but how does some become the freaking gazillionaires. So when you move here like walk me through like the process. I know nothing of music and I'm sure your country fans are going to be like this guy's an idiot. You should know all this.
Walker Hayes
But I don't for the people that don't. So in a weird way, I found like any any challenging thing that res that that uh required resilience, perseverance, it kind of was a a life coping mechanism for me.
Uh and I and I didn't realize, you know, I was too young to be that smart and understand it. But my dad actually signed me up for a gig. I was 22 years old. I was going to just work for him. I was going to sell real estate and he got me a gig at a bar. And he was like, "Hey, I've I've listened to you at home. You're funny. You you can sing pretty good. You need to do this at this bar." And uh I was I was scared to death, but I did the gig.
Changed my life at that day. Kind of like I was telling you, we bought our house. I played this gig. It was terrible. I had no business moving to Nashville. I wasn't talented. I'd never written a song. All I knew is I absolutely loved that two hours on that stool in that bar and it was a lot more fun than selling real estate.
Ken Rideout
And you were playing guitar and singing
Walker Hayes
Just a little bit. Like I literally maybe could play you six songs and sing them at the same time. We were still in the phase of okay, I got to sing and strum, you know, at the same time. And the journey ahead of me was very, very long, but I was like, just a little bit a day, you know, we're going to get better. And uh I asked Lanny, we were engaged, we were 22, and I said, "Do you want to move to Nashville?" And she said yes.
Blindly, didn't think twice about it. So I owe her a lot for her.
I don't know if it was ignorance, but she was, as crazy as me. She was like, "Why not?" You know,
Ken Rideout
Don't you love seeing that she was in it for the long haul when you were 22,
Broke as a joke, moving to Nashville, and now I see you on social media carrying her into your like gigantic walk-in pantry. I'm like, "Dude, I love I love stories.
Walker Hayes
She deserves even more than a walk-in pantry." But we left security, you know, and and and and man, honestly, if I had to do it now, I don't know, man. I think maybe we were just crazy, you know?
Ken Rideout
But don't you think that that's the test for the people who really want to make it? You have to like jump. You have to take that. You have to make a leap.
Walker Hayes
You do. There are there are sacrifices you must make and and one of those is like is security. But we left we left Mobile. We left I left a wonderful job and a future working with my dad and some of my brothers and um you know it didn't make sense to anyone. And we got here man and I just dove into songwriting. The first song I ever wrote uh we went to the Bluebird. Me and my wife walked in the Bluebird a week after we got here.
We we drove a U-Haul from our uh honeymoon and then we we um went to the Bluebird together and I heard
Ken Rideout
That's a bar in Nashville.
Walker Hayes
Yeah, a bar in Nashville where you no one sings covers. You only sing songs you've written. Gotcha.
And I did I actually didn't know that. I I showed up and was like I'll sing some you know songs that I know. And I noticed that everybody was singing songs they had written. So we left before they called my name. And uh and then I came back the next week with some songs that I had written. They were terrible. I would never play these for anybody and they made people laugh. And I just got the bug, man. I mean, I honestly from that day um forward, I've I've at least written a song idea on something, my hand or a napkin or a cup or or whatever.
And and I I got to tell you, man, I wish that for everybody. I I wish that's what I tell all my kids is it look it's not going to save you. It's not like the answer to life but the fact that after 20 years of writing a song a and and no fruit like look my batting average I've had like five you could call them hits out of a thousand. That's the wor you know that's that's terrible odds. You know what I mean? Like
Ken Rideout
But you know how many you'd have if you wrote zero songs none.
Walker Hayes
But but what's crazy though is that with those odds, I'm undeter. I don't care. I'm still going to write a song like on the way home from this, I'll be texting myself, voice texting, uh ideas, you know, for for the next song. And I am so grateful to there's only a few things that I've loved that long, you know, like we're we're talking about my wife, my kids, and that, you know, I mean, everything else I'm kind of like I'm done.
Like it's cool, but I don't want to do it on my deathbed. But dude, I mean, I still wake up giddy about songwriting. Man, I I had, you know, I had some early success. Like, honestly, when I got here, um, there were a couple years where I was a little cocky. I mean, I I was like, why does everybody say this is so hard? Cuz I got I got a publishing deal.
Ken Rideout
You kind of have to have a little bit of foolish selfbelief to think you could do this. Like, you think you're going to be a music star? You know how many people are in Nashville, you maniac, right?
So, you have to have some like delusional self-belief.
Walker Hayes
that kind of has to roll off your shoulders at some point. So, but I had a couple I had a couple quick um you know, record contracts. I had a couple quick publishing deals. Now, they they they went as fast as they came, but I still, you know, four or five years in, I'm still thinking, I don't know, man. I'm I'm as good as all these people. And uh but I just man, I just kept at it.
And um honestly, you know, as our family grew, I will say, you know, the adversity, it mounted up, you know what I mean? And and with age, you know, you look at a music career and you go, I mean, how many people are there my age? And the older you get, there's fewer, you know, that's just the way it is.
Ken Rideout
Again, you again, you and Jelly Roll, the like longest overnight success ever.
Walker Hayes
Crazy. Yes. me and Jelly Roll have a sim I mean similar you know timeline but then you know you get everybody's like hey it's a 10year town and if you've been here 11 or 12 you're like
It's starting to not like
Ken Rideout
I know that feeling
Walker Hayes
You know yeah and so you know we're getting into a 15-year town you know and here I am where was we got six kids you know I'm alcoholic I'm clocking in at Costco super early you know I'm setting alarm 3:00 a.m. clocking in at 4, stocking produce, going to write. My body's I'm kind of getting tired, you know?
Ken Rideout
Are you exercising while you're doing this or you don't have time?
Walker Hayes
Dude, in a sad in a sad way, I I mean, I remember going to the gym hammered, you know, and I know that feeling. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not I'm not proud of it. But I tell you what, man, that I I do see physical activity. Look, it can be an idol for me. It can damage my marriage and my relationship with my kids just as much as alcohol can. But I got to tell you, it's a gift, man. I'm really glad that I found that challenge each and every day.
I mean, I've I've never stopped doing something every day. And so yeah, I was working out and then but it was I mean honestly that way of life it was tearing me down, you know, and um you know, we get in our 30s. I think I quit drinking when I was 35. Um you know, just had to stop. I mean, I I woke up one Saturday and I just I knew I would die if if I did it another day. And um so one day, you know, turned into two two turned into a week and then I was high on sobriety.
And the gym was different, you know, like
Ken Rideout
I know that feeling.
Walker Hayes
You you you you go in the gym and you're like, dude, I'm putting on muscle like I was like 18 again.
Ken Rideout
You almost wish everyone could have that feeling once you see just a flicker of hope because initially you go in the gym a week, two weeks, you don't see any difference. You're dieting, you don't see anything. But the minute you see a flicker of change, you're like, there is a light at the end of the tunnel and I'm gonna keep going and like you get that bug. Yeah. The other thing that I can relate to that I'm sure you felt too is when you have children and you don't have this figure.
I got sober, but I had kids and in 2016 we moved to LA. I left my job in New York as a Wall Street trader. There's no Wall Street trading in LA. And I was went to work at a financial technology startup knowing
That it might not work. And if it doesn't, I'm in a tough spot cuz you're not getting another trading job in LA. And I I I end up linking up with a a different job in finance that changed the trajectory of my life. But if
That feeling of when we moved there, when I left my job, moved to LA, I got four kids, we're living in a house in Pacific Palace that was like 12 grand a month that I couldn't really afford. My money was just flying out the windows like I was lighting it on fire. I wasn't making much money at these startups. And at my first for the first year I worked at this financial services firm or asset manager. And um but I believed blindly that I would figure it out.
And when it turned the corner, it turned the corner and things turned around and I got a career to be able to do the things that I do now. But back to the stress of the kids when you have your six kids and you were you still drinking when you had the sixth one?
Walker Hayes
Yeah. Yeah. I mean that was that was a pivotal year. I mean I was I quit drinking that October. So the year we had our sixth and um and then yeah, you know, I haven't touched a drop set. I'm 10 years this p this October we just passed. Um
Did you go to AA or just a few? You know, I honestly I grew up going to my brother's you know AA family days and stuff like that. And so I I have a I have a tremendous respect for programs and the 12 steps and the sponsors and things like that. I'm not a regular uh AA attender, but I love it. And same exact situation as every now and then, like if I'm out of town and I start thinking nobody would know, that's when I find the meeting.
That's that's the work to me. That's like that's the closest I get is when I I start thinking you I could have a night and no one, you know, no one would see. You know, the craziest thing though is my wife and I, you know, through through this journey and as you know, resources ran out and hope in the, you know, the occupation was lost and dreams seemed, you know, broken and stuff. I still wrote. I mean, I still love to write. There was a tough time where I started noticing that my journey really affected my kid.
You know, I thought, man, we couldn't buy bagels. And I was like, I want my kids I know it sounds stupid, but I I'll probably get emotional, but I just I remember one time like bagels were a luxury. And I was like, well, that's weird, you know. I was like, I didn't grow, you know, I didn't dream of being this dad, you know, who's like, ah, we can't have a bagel, you know. I'm like,
You're starting talking about a bagel. I was like, it's getting pretty serious. It's like a little more serious than I thought, you know, and
And I'm like, well, why why can't we have a bagel? And I'm thinking, well, it's cuz dad, you know, I'm getting 11 an hour
And I'm also spending a lot of my time chasing this kind of elusive outcome, you know, trying to climb this mountain that in the end, who car, you know what I mean? Like, I'm a capable guy. Get a haircut, go get a go get a good job, responsible cubicle thing. And then I'm but then I was like, but what do I want to teach my kids? You know, do do I want to do I want to teach my kids to chase um a lifestyle or purpose, you know?
I mean, some people maybe they were made to just put on khakis and do the thing, you know, and they're hap they're happy, but every time I dabbled in that, my wife always reminded me, she was like, cuz I had some jobs that weren't they were more almost careerish.
Yeah. and and she would yeah she would remind me and say
I think I like you better
You know because it affects you it affects the way you come home you know it's like what's wrong with dad and you're like well I don't think he enjoys his job and it's like but it pays the bills but if you don't enjoy it
There's a there's like a vivaciousness you lose there it kind of those handcuffs they bring you down you know those
Ken Rideout
I always tell people you're either working on making your dreams come true or someone else's and the part of being again like you said for some people that's excellent. They like the safety of that. That's what they they they enjoy it. They feel good about it.
To me, I was like, I'm I'm throwing in the towel. I'm being me. I'm accepting mediocrity forever. There's no dream. When you work for yourself, there's the possibility of like poverty,
But there's also the the light at the end of the tunnel that like that you've got to like you got it. Whether you want to think you did it or not, like you did it. It's awesome. I like
I freaking love this story. I love everything that you've done. One thing that I that I want to ask you about and I know you've spoken about it and it's incredibly sad. I hesitate in even asking, but it's so difficult to even think about that cuz I was talking to my wife about it. She's like, "Oh my god,
You lost a child."
Walker Hayes
We did. We We had a stillborn and uh
Ken Rideout
Nine months you you're having a baby. So,
Walker Hayes
Yeah. And it was it was kind of in the midst of my first um this was this was post Costco. This was two years sober. Like this is career trajectory.
Ken Rideout
It's starting to happen.
Walker Hayes
Just a little bit of light, you know? I mean, not nothing nothing like nothing like Jelly Roll, you know? But like, okay, you know, getting some momentum here. We had a song out called You Broke Up With Me and I was actually scheduled to sing it on the CMT Awards. So big day, you know, it's like I'm like, "Dude, I want to be on TV. Like, I'm getting nervous." And on that day, my wife went into labor and it got complicated. We were rushed to the hospital and they delivered our little girl.
It was my my wife carried her longer than any kid, so well overdue. and um her name was Oakley and she just didn't survive and my wife almost uh died that day too. So just man, you talk about just you know young man um let's see Oakley would be seven so I'm 46 so this is 38 39ish. Uh you talk about somebody who's not that acquainted with the brevity of life. Uh you know I've lost a grandparent.
Yeah, exactly. I know what you mean. But I'm looking at death, man. I mean, I'm looking at death. I'm looking at life going, you know, that day I'm in a hospital room by myself, waiting on Laney to basically stop bleeding. Yep.
I've just been told that I have a new little girl who they tried to resuscitate but couldn't. You know, I'm in this room by myself and I'm going, "Do I do you hold a dead kid? Do you take a picture of a dead kid? Should I meet a dead kid without my wife? What if my wife dies? What is a 38-year-old mid, you know, C minus songwriter do with six kids? What do I, you know, my dad's getting old? How do I take How do I help mom and dad?
What do I tell my father-in-law today? If if Doc comes in and says, "I can't make Laney stop bleeding," then I'm the idiot who took my family, you know, a lot of just like I'm even thinking, "Why didn't I cut my wife open and just deliver the kid when it was alive at 8 this morning?" I mean, a lot of irrational, stupid thoughts, but it's just all coming in. And then, praise God, Laney did stop bleeding. She comes back. you know, I have to deliver the news to her probably six times because she she comes to writes on a she can't talk.
She's got like pipes going down her throat and I'm I'm white writing on a whiteboard and she's like she points at her stomach. She's saying, "Where is where's our kid?" And I have to tell her she she's not alive. She didn't make it. And then Laney will just convulse back to sleep. And then she'll wake up 30 minutes later and do it again.
And then I'm asking the nurse, I'm like, "Hey, should I just not respond?" Like, "How long how long till I can tell my wife something and her remember?" And so, dude, it was just the the you know, we we buried Oakley a week later. Um, it was brutal. The night we buried her, I drove to a bar in Franklin called 55 South and I wanted I literally wanted to set it the place on fire. I just, you know, I've never been like a man, even growing up, like I mean, for for for my school, maybe got in two fights my whole life, and one of them was with my brother, so that didn't even count, you know, and and it was brutal, but like that was only two times in my life where I was like, I would like to punch someone in the face.
I'm just not that guy, you know? Um, but dude, that night I just it's like it's like every moment in my life that I had suppressed that, dude. I just want There were three guys at this bar and I drove up and I was like, I'm just going to get hammered. I'm going to go at them. They're going to kick my ass, but I'm going to make them work for it, you know, and I'm just going to give it all I've got and I don't care.
I'm gonna get arrested. I'm gonna break every window in this place. And uh my wallet was not in my door. This wallet. And so I go back home in our Honda. I walk in the room. This is the day we buried. There's still dirt on my shoe from me and my sons filling up the hole at the grave. It's June. It's hot as crap. And I walk in and Laney is by herself on this yellow couch in the dark. And for and it just occurred to me how every every thought every single thought since the death of my daughter was about me.
Never. I I didn't I I mean I explained, you know, I had to explain to our kids um you know that we lost a kid. We had to discuss that. I obviously cared for Laney, but it it struck me that moment when I saw Laney that really my main concern was me. For someone who loves their wife a lot, Yeah.
I wasn't really doing a great job of it. For Mr. Dad, I wasn't really doing a great job of it. I was about to heap on, you know, let's take dad to rehab. Let's go get dad out of jail tomorrow. Let's go to court, you know, let's let's really get into, you know, and so I told Laney that speaking AA, she found me a meeting in Franklin and I drove to that meeting and it got me it got me through a night. I'm glad you brought that up because I gotta tell you, man, lose a kid, however you have a miscarriage, even it'll change your perspective.
Ken Rideout
You know, you know,
Walker Hayes
Yeah, my wife had three of them.
Yeah. Three years after I lost Oakley, we lost my dad. So, I watched a lot of humans just turn off. And that'll change the way you live, bro. I mean,
Ken Rideout
Yeah,
Walker Hayes
You got a choice each day. And what you don't get a choice in, you get a tomorrow. If you're going to write a song, write the [ __ ] out of that song, man. And when you look at your kid when they're painting your nails, look at them.
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
Walker Hayes
I don't want to be in the club of lose lose a kid club or lose a dad club. But you talk about some perspective when you wake up the next day that will that has enhanc I've been blessed. I'm privileged to know that pain. I'm I'm privileged to know what it's like to to think what if my wife doesn't wake up and for that to happen early. like Lord willing I get another 30 you know and I'm like geez all this would have been gone you know um but yeah man that you know I think my wife would she would join me in this like almost gratitude for the experience um that losing Oakley had on us man I mean it it it really changed the lens that I look at life uh on a daily basis.
Ken Rideout
You know,
A lot of people have dealt with a lot of things and to hear of someone else's story, good, bad, or indifferent, it it's helpful to know you're not alone when you happen when things like that happen to you. My wife is
Just recovering from breast cancer. She was diagnosed in November. November had a massctomy and it was
I can I mean, the thought of something happening to your wife, I have four kids. the thought of something to all for all the obvious reasons, but on top of that, like my kids are not prepared for this. I'm not prepared to be a single dad. Like, I don't have the the skills. Like, I'm just it's a scary feeling. And to your point, when you go through something like that, I think it strengthens the the family bond and everyone rallies together. Like certainly when my wife was sick, everyone was like I'm like, "Guys," you know, I pulled the kids aside and I'm like, "Guys, we're going through it." Like we need to pull together.
Walker Hayes
And it was very
Ken Rideout
Difficult cuz some of they all handled it differently. My oldest daughter is adopted. She's from Ethiopia. And she's very stoic and keeps her emotions to herself. My middle guy was just a mess. He's like, "I know mom's going to die." And I'm like, "No, she's not gonna die, dude. We're too strong to die. She's too strong. She's a pain in the ass. She's never gonna go away." I had to find a way to kind of make it tolerable for them and like downplay it because
I would always I say this about everything like when people are going through it like what you said we're in this right this is happening
And I was just like guys this sucks
Walker Hayes
But we're here
Ken Rideout
And there is no like we're not just a little bit pregnant
It's happening let's get ready and let's deal with it and let's like and I would tell my wife after a day or two I said to her look we can sit around and cry about this more. We did plenty of that. And I said, "Or
You can suck it up. Be an example of what toughness looks like for the kids, for your friends, for other people. We're not alone. Lots of people have gone through this. Doesn't make it easier, but at some point you have to stop feeling sad and down and get go into fight mode and attack mode." And we didn't. She She got through it, but it was definitely not easy. So, I I can really sympathize with
What you went through and I'm sorry you had to deal with that. And I again, I hate to even ask about it, but
Walker Hayes
Dude, I got to tell you, you know, I've had a pretty adventurous life. And and it's not it's not cuz I'm Mr. like let's climb Everest, but we have. You know, we we've climbed addiction. We we got more kids than we ever thought we had, you know? You know, we've experienced all the material the world can give you, and we've also experienced the other. But I got to tell you, dude, in the weirdest in the weirdest way, and I think some people would be like, "Dude, you're psychotic." But Laney would agree with me.
The way that makes me look at every moment and and and away from myself. Again, I took you through the process of grief. At first, it was just me me. And then for the rest of my life, it's like, no, no, no, no, no. This is everybody. We got people whose wives have cancer. We got, you know, we got people who their their mom doesn't remember their name. We got people dying over, you know what I mean? It's it's it's it was the start of my ego death, which to me is God-given.
If if you if you ever get to that,
That's you're starting to experience some freedom. And so, I guess what I'm trying to say is of all the things in my life, the best of the bad that the world would go, "Yay, you and then the worst of the worst." I mean, I would take that. I would take the loss of my daughter because it's the it is just so valuable. If my life was a house burning down, I would run in and grab that moment because it has just changed it's changed my family.
You know what I mean? Unfortunately, I tell my kids this all the time. Your your your good life, the easy life, you just don't grow.
That's right. I don't know why it's the it's my least favorite thing about life is and it kind of annoys me when things are good because I'm like ah I'm not doing anything. You know what I mean? I get a little lousy. But dude, when it's the worst, you're just you're being sharpened. I mean, you're you're you know what I mean? Like there's a there's another side of that where you're just like I just am I'm a better human. I know I'm a better human.
Ken Rideout
Well, you know that an example of that is like grapes for wine. The best grapes face the most resilience. They're freezing cold at night and burning up in the during the day in Napa Valley or in France, wherever they grow the best wine. But those grapes that face like harsh extremes in both conditions tend to be the best. And there's a lot of fruits like that that are under a lot of stress, they tend to be like the most favored fruits.
Ken Rideout
Talk to me about the the first moment you had where you had like real success with the songwriting where like you got on stage and people you were like holy [ __ ] people know this many people know me.
Was there a moment like that where you were like Laney look at this there's people here.
Walker Hayes
Uh it was gradual but but but I mean it really did happen overnight for us. You know, my co was a particularly interesting time for me because, you know, I went 400 days with no shows. So, that means dad didn't get a paycheck, you know. Now, I probably received some royalties over that time over some music I had out, but I was definitely looking at our life savings going, "Dude, I don't know how long this is gonna last," you know? But I was honestly pretty peaceful because the rest of the world wasn't having any shows either, you know.
And um but you know an interesting thing over co that I did and I I think this was a gift from God. No one gave me this advice but for me I was home for the first time.
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
Walker Hayes
For extended periods.
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
Walker Hayes
I was kind of jealous of Laney. I was like you get to do this with the kids every day. Like y'all just hang out. I just thought you know I don't get to do one-on-one with my kids. I'm gonna do one-on-one with my kids because I have I'm home till the world opens back up. So, with each of my kid, I dove head first into whatever they were doing. If it was Pokemon, I started memorizing the cards and I and I, you know, if it was one of them drew, that's what we did.
And and with Leela, my daughter, I did song dances.
Ken Rideout
The Tik Tok dances that you do with her are so good.
Walker Hayes
So, we started that. me and dude, you're a good dancer.
Oh, dude, she's instructed me well. But we started that and when I wrote Fancy Like I got I think my management would agree. They probably were about ready to part way. I think they would have said, "Hey, man. We love you. We love your family. I don't really see country music going in your direction." And I could not have argued with them. That fancy like it came out on the one yard. I mean, it was it just it it popped out of nowhere. My daughter said, "Dad, that song you just put out, it needs a dance." We did it on
Ken Rideout
Like a Tik Tok dance, like a signature dance.
Walker Hayes
It needs a Tik Tok dance. So, it'd been out two days. Leela and I did this dance. We We learned it for 30 minutes. I had no f social following was I had like I had a big Instagram. Yeah.
Didn't really was still kind of figuring out Tik Tok. My daughter goes, "Uh, needs a dance. My wife filmed it twice. I popped it on it on TikTok and I went for a run that day." So, I go 30 minutes. I did this little four mile loop really fast. So, we get back and I just walk by my phone. I'm sweaty. I'm like, "Oh, check it out." My son goes, "Dad, you got 600,000 views in and you know your love."
And then that night,
Uh, I'm pretty sure it passed like 2 million. And then in two days it was like in the 13 14, you know, and then literally before the next week the Today Show had called. Uh we were getting booked for stuff and and then also immediately like if we went to Chick-fil-A or something, people were like, "Are you the guy?" Like, "Are you the Applebee's guy?" So that
Did Applebee's. Well, you know what's funny is we reached out to Applebe because we were obviously like, "Hey, you got to hear this." And then they said, "Uh, well, just call us, you know, let us know how the how the launch goes." And then they they called us back. They were like, "Whoa, you know, this is blowing up." But that was and what happened, I played a private show for them um in Arkansas, you know, huge corporate I played corporate shows. They did the, you know, they did the commercial.
Which blew it up, you know, even further. And I got paid, you know, for the commercial. But we're
Ken Rideout
Isn't it crazy to think about how much money you're getting paid to do things where you're like, I would have paid you to do a commercial two years ago?
Walker Hayes
Uh, one I mean, honestly, yes. I mean, that is
Ken Rideout
What a gift.
Walker Hayes
That is a um there are days where you're like, dude, I can't believe like I I mean, I feel bad, but you get like that's what I'm going to get paid, you know, to do this or
We got to get you out of that mindset. Don't feel Don't feel bad.
Ken Rideout
No,
Cuz like you said when you told them about it, they were like, "Yeah, good for you." Basically, pound sand. Then the next thing you know, it's like It's funny how people do that, right? They're like, "Oh, Walker, good for you." Like they walk away. Like, in my mind, I'm always like, "These guys don't care if I live or die." Then the minute it's in their benefit to know you when something good happens and they're like, "Dude, your song's the best. What can we do for you?" And it's just kind of I don't know, maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way, but I always feel a bit like, eh, f you.
Walker Hayes
Well, that's to to me it's great to experience that because it just you just realize I don't want to do that to people. You know what I mean?
And so I mean, dude, the whole reason I got, you know, I didn't tell you this story, but when I was working at Costco, the same year we had our six kid, the same year I got sober, I met my hero songwriter, his name is Shane McAnally. He was in Smoothie King. And I had just I worked I had gone to Costco, worked out, and was playing a gig at the Bluebird that afternoon.
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
Walker Hayes
And I I was like, I'm going to get a smoothie. And I walked in and Shane McAnally was in line and I tapped him on the shoulder. And to this day, that's who I'm with. I mean, he he took me under his wing that day, gave me his email address, and we've been like best buddies ever since.
Ken Rideout
But isn't that crazy that because how many people are going to recognize like a songwriter like I mean I guess if you're in the industry of course but like
Walker Hayes
He's we're talking 60 number ones
Ken Rideout
Even if you said to me that who I'd be like is that is that good? I don't know you know but I think unless you're really in the industry so I think it's interesting that you even recognize cuz usually the songwriter isn't front and center
So to recognize them and then connect with them and I agree with you about wanting to help people. The problem that I have with people reach out via DM is like some people
They don't like have they can't kind of read the room. It's not like a soft cell like hey man I'm a big fan you know if you're in town could I run with you they're like hey man I see you running Brenwood can I come and run with you and I'm like 90% of town I'm like yeah I'm going to run at this time I'll meet you at this park it's a mile away just because I live in where I live you don't got to come in and park in the neighborhood.
So, I promise you 90% of the time we make plans, 99% of the time they don't show up.
Walker Hayes
They don't show up.
Ken Rideout
If someone asks to run with me and I say yes, it's because I would anticipate I'll run whatever pace they have to run. I think people think
With because I've had some fast races that when I go out and run with you, I'm going to it's a race. Like, I'm going to I would never agree to run with you if I didn't anticipate staying with you. Like,
It's not a race. And at times if I have a workout, I've had friends where they're like, "Hey, can I run with you?" And I just send them the workout. It's like, you know, one mile at 5:30 pace, recover for a minute, two miles at 5:40, please pace. And I'm like, "If you want to do this with me, there's not much talking. I'm like on the verge of death while I'm doing it." But you know, so
So to that end, yes, I love helping and being of service to people,
But I can't stand it when people are too like pushy with the ask where I'm like, "Dude, come on, man." or they want to like talk to me on the phone and I'm like, "Buddy, I got six kids, 10 jobs, my wife's sick." I'm like, "No offense, like you know, I don't have a free minute. I I'm I'm talking to you on DM right now. I'll I'll if I can help you, I will. But I don't have time to take
Calls with strangers to like pick my brain. My brain's empty. I'm just trying every day to do what I think is right. I don't have a secret formula. I'm 54. I still am not necessarily where I want to be, right?
Walker Hayes
You know what I mean? I'm still trying. I've noticed that to to to your point, a lot of people
Um just like probably you and I did, you know, when we were in our 20s, I I think I had this this this lie that I'm going to meet like some person and immediately be brought up, you know, the ladder.
Ken Rideout
You're going to be cool by association,
Walker Hayes
Right? And so what I I I you just said it really well. A lot of people, my advice is like you just said, I'm just doing it every day, too. You know, like, okay, so I had I had some hit songs. I'm just trying trying to write another one tomorrow.
Ken Rideout
And I didn't have a hit song until I was also stocking shelves on the overnight shift at Costco with six kids. Like, if you're looking for the secret to success, I don't know that I have it. Like, I have the hard work,
Walker Hayes
Right? You know,
And Yes. And and so I have a friend of mine who I love when he shares his dreams cuz I I'm like, "Dude, let's do it." You I love your dream. I want you don't mention your dream around me if you don't want to talk about it cuz that's all I want to talk about.
But here's the deal. Most of those people, nine out of 10,
They won't do it. You know what I mean? I can literally be like, "No, no, no. Seriously, just pick that up and drop that." Yeah.
And they won't drop that.
And they just won't, you know, and then I'm and then I'm I get frustrated with them and I'm like, you know, you're gonna have to not eat bagels. You know, that's the thing is I'm just like,
No, you're you're going to you're going to have to leave the security of a paycheck. You're going to have to like tone down your spending. You're going to maybe have to live somewhere that's not as nice.
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
Walker Hayes
It's just But it's okay. Like, wouldn't you wouldn't you rather wouldn't you rather do that? Like do that dream? Um, but not every, again, not everybody would.
Ken Rideout
Well, there's two things. There is number one, if you're just talking about what you want to do, that's different than talking about what you're in the process of doing. Yeah. Right. And then there's I call it the dos and don'ts. Like when someone's talking about, man, I really want to run a fast marathon and I'm like, okay, there's the things that you should do and there's the things that you should not do. So, they're always like, there's always that question like, do I start doing the dos or stop doing the don'ts?
And I always say,
Start with just dropping the don'ts. like never mind what you're going to do. Like just if you want to lose weight, stop eating that crap. Don't worry about working out. Just stop like eating dessert after dinner, whatever it is. Just stop the don'ts. Then slowly add in the dos. But if if something is super pressing to you,
I I tell my kids this too. If you really want to do something, whatever it is, if you if you don't focus on that like with laserike focus and and and all of your energy goes to that one thing versus trying to do like all these side quests and be good be good at one thing, focus on it. Like you wanted to be a songwriter and it happened because that was all you wanted to do when you had the chance to have a real job and a real career
In an office. You were like, I hate this. and it and and you kept pursuing the writing and the and the music and it happened. But no one would ever say like you said it's the only thing you've ever really loved for your whole life.
So there's there it is. And if you need motivation to think like
Should I keep doing this? I always think like you didn't come this far to just come this far.
Walker Hayes
Yeah.
Ken Rideout
The next day could be
The freaking next it could be like the tipping point. you might be right there. And if that's what you've cared about and chased that dream for so many years, I don't know. I'd rather go down trying to do what I want to do than to like submit and surrender and just be like, I took a job cuz then you're like, it's over. The minute you quit, the dream is over. And the game's not over until you win or quit.
Walker Hayes
Yeah. You just reminded me of this when you said it. That's one thing I never really got to say thank you, you know, to my dad is that he just love he loved his job. And it wasn't the job I loved. Yeah. But I woke up every day to a dad who was jacked to go and just get on the battlefield, you know, and real estate market was crazy. Like I saw saw the '08 thing and he had some hard times, but like
He was a big attitude guy, you know,
And he was just relentless. like to watch someone love what they do. It so positively impacted me and reminded me, hey, you got a choice ultimately in life. You you do what you want to do. You got a choice every day. You know,
A lot of things you can't control, but you do. And that's kind of what I, you know, desire for my kids is I that that's kind of what kept me in the Costco days. I was like, how do I be a better dad? do something I love or do something, you know, just to provide security, which is not even I mean, I hate I I don't want to sound like unsympathetic, but like I kind of think security is overrated. You know what I mean? I see a lot of people in my friends who would rather be they'd rather be busy because of the importance it provides them than happy.
I see them doing jobs that provide a lifestyle that they're not even happy in. It just looks like their neighbor, but they're putting they're setting dreams aside and passions aside and relationships.
Ken Rideout
They're selling their dreams for security and status and they think they have a job that they should have and their neighbors look at them like, "Oh, Joe's a banker. He's really hustling." Joe hates himself and his wife. Like, what are you talking about?
Right? I had a friend who has a big exec at um Deutsche Bank in New York. Big like and at one point he was asking me because he was like, "How did you make the jump and go work for yourself?" I was like, "Look, it wasn't easy. I have four kids. Like I I'm a monthtomon like I have different gigs and you know, you hustle up consulting gigs." But I said to him at one point, I said, "I guarantee that you have 10 to 100 times more money than I do.
Do you think that you're happier than me?"
I said, "You're going spending tons of bread to go to the Four Seasons in Barbados." And don't get me wrong, before we had kids, I love doing things like that when I was working in finance. I'm with it. But I have four kids now. They don't know if they're at Santa Rosa Beach with that when I drove down to Florida or if they're in the Caribbean at the Four Seasons. They don't know the difference. And you know, I rented a house for a week versus flying first class to Four Seasons.
I said,
"Get over this thing of trying to like show your friends where you went and just enjoy the moment. The beach is gorgeous in Santa Rosa Beach. You wouldn't know the difference if you were in the Caribbean. I mean, unless of course some Old Miss fans were down there throwing the football, cranking country music.
Walker Hayes
Well, you you you just described it. It got me thinking about one thing that kind of I'm I don't really I try not to just let I'm like, "Hey, man. I'm just
I'm just doing my thing, man. I'm trying to take care of my family." But but the but the more in the public eye, you do receive
Negativity. You know, all people in if you're seen, you're polarizing. Okay. and the way people look at you. Like some people see me dance with my daughter and it affects them negatively. They don't like you, which is crazy. It, you know, whatever. We're people. So, I I don't want to judge anybody
For judging me for both of us. But here here's my thing is I I get a lot of people who are like like the other day I we did a trampoline in my living room and a po a certain post kind of just kind of blew up and I I was I was like why this one, you know? But a lot of people wrote things like uh you know step one be rich or um you know
Ken Rideout
Don't you love don't you love when people like must be nice. Yeah it is nice. Guess who created this nice thing? Me. When I was working at Costco no one was looking up to me telling them must be nice. F you. Like I did this.
Walker Hayes
The thing I thought was when you said is
The happiness isn't any different. Like you know when me and my kids when I came home from Costco and I was throwing the ball with my kid and we didn't eat bagels I was so h I mean I had a song on my heart. I mean I I was climbing
The journey you know we and and the happiness is no
I find that circumstantially like that joy
If you if if you are if God gave you like this passion and you're after it it really doesn't matter like that I was happy then. Yeah.
I mean, we probably look stupider to some other people. And then now, yeah, there's there's my bill. I'm not like scared how I'm going to pay for food tomorrow. But the happiness looks exactly the same, you know?
Ken Rideout
But again, you created this. You're the one who risked everything to get to this point. And now it's like, what am I supposed to do? Feel guilty? Like, f you. I'm like 40ome years old. I got six kids. I've done it the hard way. And now I have a trampoline in my barnaminium. And you're like pissed off like my Be rich. Yeah. I guess what? Go be rich. No one's stopping you. You live in the greatest country on earth. You can do anything you want here.
Walker Hayes
Literally.
Ken Rideout
So, I love your Instagram. I look at it and I genuinely I think
I need to be more like open and more comfortable sharing things like this cuz honestly, I'm jealous. I'm like, this guy has like no insecurity issues. He's just being himself, dancing with his daughter, jumping on the trampoline. I'm always like thinking, I don't want to post that. Ah, think I'm going to get judged for that. And then I'm like, what the f do I care? No one who you admire is going to be critical of you. When I look at someone doing something like what you describe, where where my instinct is to be like, oh, look at this idiot.
Then I think I genuinely do. So I go, what is this triggering in me that makes me feel negative about this guy? I don't know this guy. Why do I
Why am I telling myself that I hate him?
Walker Hayes
Yeah.
Ken Rideout
And I I do it a lot because I have a lot of strong emotions cuz like I'm dealing with my own trauma. But I think that if more people take a beat and think about what they're writing, cuz I always think, how effing bored are you that you have time to write a negative comment about another grown man? Like, you're scrolling my Instagram. I didn't come for you. You're scrolling my Instagram. You're like, "Oh, this guy's full of crap and he's did this and he's only doing this because I'm like, you don't know me from a hole at all, buddy." And I hate when they talk about things that really affect me.
Like, he's ugly. I'm like, "I know I'm ugly, you idiot. Um,
Walker Hayes
No, you're right though. like you just said, there's there's something threatening. That's been a journey, you know, that's been a journey for me is um
Not looking left and right in my industry and, you know, competing and comparing and and it's taken me wisdom and uh a lot of life beating me up to where, you know, I am growing into a person who can see another artist succeed and go, "Dude, good on you." Because I know I know it ain't easy. You know what I mean? Like I can look at Jelly Roll and go,
"Good for you, bro." Yeah. You know, because I know
We're the 0.00001%, you know, that get to do it do it. You know what I mean? Like mo most people don't, you know? And and so I'm really that it's funny how life does that to you, you know? And cuz you know in my 20s I would have probably seen Jelly Roll and gone I'm better than that guy or that's not that good or you know what I mean like what what is that or and um but I think as you as you get get older and again you see
It's kind of miraculous man. I mean I am a miracle. I mean I am absolute I don't sing as good as as most people here. There's there's much better writers than me. There's people who have been more f able to focus you know. I mean, again, I've I've had a kid every two years for 10 years, you know, and I love them. I love my family. I didn't put my family on hold. Um, again, the the COVID thing, the we lost a kid thing. I have had addiction, you know, be beating down my door and somehow we're okay.
Like, we're okay another day. I live to write another song. And um you know, again, I feel like each day my priorities, they get better and better. You know, that's a good thing.
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
Walker Hayes
You know, as I grow.
Ken Rideout
And how about uh you telling me before you homeschool the kids?
Well, my wife does.
Walker Hayes
Yeah, sorry. Your wife. How How does that work with the six kids all different ages? Like
Yeah, dude. They're all all my kids are night and day. You know, one thing I will say we avoided, they did, they just never had a click. Yeah.
You know, so my kids are diverse. I mean, one just finished cosmetology school, loves hair.
Ken Rideout
Hair is her songwriting. Yep.
Walker Hayes
And I got to tell you, man, I get on my knees
At night and I and I cry out to God, thank you. You know, that I
That we we raise a kid, you know, I raised a daughter, you know, I raised a daughter. I raised a kid. Yeah. and she's 20 and she has a job.
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
Walker Hayes
That she loves.
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
Walker Hayes
And uh you know, she went to her first day and yacked on the way. She was afraid and and then she did her first day and loved it. You know what I mean? Like I'm watching her doing what I did. You know, stage fright, vomit, sing, love it. You know, I'm just It's literally I'm like, "Oh my god, God, what?" And then I got a 18-year-old who is a genius.
He's a genius. He's jacked, but he hates sports and he loves coding. And so every day I'm like, "What'd you code?" And dude, I got to tell you, if he talks an hour, I understand one minute of it. Yeah.
But I'm just like, "Heck yeah, bro." Yeah.
That's awesome. You You did that? No way. And then I got a son who's u 16 and he wants to play quarterback next year and he's the most athletic kid I've ever seen in my life. I'm throw dude. He's got a whip. This is what's crazy, dude. is I coach high school basketball and I all WCA Winchester Christian Academy in de in Winchester
Ken Rideout
Near your house.
Walker Hayes
Yeah. And so my my sons can play there under the home school.
Ken Rideout
So they can be homeschooled and play for the local Okay.
Walker Hayes
And so we this is our second season. We lost every game last year. We're seven and seven this year.
Ken Rideout
Hell yeah.
Walker Hayes
And um I made my eighth grader play. His name is Beckett. He uh he loves horses. everything horses. You
Ken Rideout
Guys have horses?
Walker Hayes
No, no, no, no. But we have we have great places out there that let him work on the farm, help out. He's really into the work part. And then my wife, dude, is just
She's a freak, man. Like, she's a freak. I mean, she, you know, you pick a mate,
Ken Rideout
You're like,
It's the most important decision you'll ever make.
Not enough emphasis is made on that when you're young. I didn't think about it. I mean, I got lucky, but
Walker Hayes
I know
Ken Rideout
It's why so many marriages fail. But if you don't marry the right person, you know, you're going through it, man. You are going to face challenging times and you're going to go through times where you like want to kill each other and you're like,
"How am I going to do another day with you?" And then the next day you're like, "How would I ever spend another day without you?" And it's like, it's crazy. It's very difficult, but it's so critically important. And
It's just I you don't think about it until you're in it. I know.
But you seem like you got it right.
Walker Hayes
We don't. I'm I'm going to tell you, I think just just waking up knowing I don't have this right, it's an advantage. You know, if you go in it thinking I do got this right, oh, we oh, we figured out a marriage.
Have fun with that, bro. You know what I'm saying? Those were some of the hardest times of our life. Is is really cleaning up a mess, getting in a good phase, thinking, "Oh, we we fixed it all." You know, now we're like, "Dude, enjoy enjoy a good night cuz a bad a bad one's going to come." You know what I mean? But dude, Laney is just she I don't know. I just didn't know, man. I mean, she like watching her mom.
I mean, no offense to my mom. My mom had a completely different set of tools.
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
Walker Hayes
And situation, but I'm jealous of my kid. I'm like, you don't get it, dude. I'm like, I'm I'm telling you kids,
Ken Rideout
We have so much in common. I feel the same exact way.
Walker Hayes
I do, dude. I mean, I told her that last night. Like, I think she we were up playing Clue and you know, one kid's on a trampoline and we're throwing the ball and and she's just like calm and you know, we do our chores and clean up together and stuff, but like I just looked at my boy. I think they were like they were giving some lip about something and we had a talk and I was like, "You guys are so lucky, man. You're so lucky to have your mom.
I'm telling you, man. It's just like, you know, this is why
The endurance sports, the a challenge, me coaching my kid, my kids, my the kids I coach, they probably think I'm crazy, but every every practice I tell them, I'm like, "Look, man. I know defensive slides today, they sucked. I know they burned. I know those plyometrics we did, you don't want to do them. I know you're probably looking at this going, "Coach, we got two more games. We're seven and seven. We're like Super Bowl champs compared to last year." You know what I mean? But I'm like, "Grind, give me one more.
Give me focus. Focus." And I'm like, "Dude, I'm telling you, I'm getting goosebumps. This is marriage."
Ken Rideout
Yep.
Walker Hayes
This is fatherhood. This is losing your dad. This is this is I wake up one day and I've got an addiction to something I don't need an addiction to. And you're gonna need this grit to get through it. Because if you don't, you're a slave to that for the rest of your life. That's right. If you don't have this grit, you're just going to walk away from that marriage. And you know what you're going to do? You're going to get married again. And then you're going to realize, [ __ ] every one of them is like this.
That's exactly,
You know, and so that's the crazy thing is I look at my daughter and I'm like, I think I went I think that she's in the right direction. Like it's hard, you know, like her throwing up, man. I I told her I was like I was like, Leo, I don't want to be dramatic, but the fact that you yacked on your drive on the way to the salon today, you got out of the car, you cleaned up your face, you walked in there, you interned, you learned, you love it, you drove home.
That's the battlefield of life, marriage, anything that matters from now till you die. Isn't that the best? That's like It's Braveheart, man. It's just freaking Honestly, I told her I was like,
I can die, man. I saw
I saw it. I got to see my I got to see my first kid do life like out of the nest like have a day and you did it. And I It wasn't because of me. you didn't need me. And that's what I did. We did it, you know. I was like, Laney, high five. She didn't need us to like hold her hand. And everybody does like we see those moments every day, but I I I I feel that we don't appreciate it. We're we're like, "Ah, whatever." You know, kids,
You're very reflective. Yeah.
Ken Rideout
Do any of the older ones are any of the older ones dating yet?
Walker Hayes
Leela's had a few.
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
Walker Hayes
Yeah. She's had a few. Dude, it was awesome. I mean, honestly, I feel like I have a cheat code, and that is that there is no way there's no way one of my daughter's boyfriends is going to be worse than me. And I'll tell you, I I'm I'm very vocal about this. Um, I've told the story a h 100 times, but the first time I met basically the first time I really met Lany's dad, she he bust us in the basement with no clothes on in a bed with but with beer cans everywhere.
What? What?
I know
Ken Rideout
What
Walker Hayes
I'm not I'm not proud of it, but you know it.
Ken Rideout
What did he do?
Walker Hayes
He threw me in the garage. He threw me in the garage naked.
No way.
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
And then what?
Walker Hayes
Well, then I didn't see him for a couple weeks and you know, Laney and I snuck a few phone calls in and I had to go I just went to their house and I was like, "Doug," I didn't say Doug. I was like, "Mr. Beville, I was scared."
Of course you were. And you know, I just I I said, "Man,
I love I love Laney." You know, I know I know I have an interesting way of showing it, you know, thus far, but you know, cuz cuz look, that was a pivotal moment. I could have gone, "This ain't worth it, bro. I I'll get another girlfriend." But I really did. I loved Laney. I just messed up.
Ken Rideout
And how old were you?
Walker Hayes
17. Yeah.
Ken Rideout
The thing is 17, you know, that stuff's happening, but as a dad to find that happening is like, "Oh, that's a go." And you might have told that a million times before, but I haven't heard it.
Walker Hayes
No, that was that was that was Lanny's first she was a really good girl. Like she was SGAA president person, you know, great wonderful grades and I just was
I was a I was a rebellious.
Ken Rideout
You were a high school boy. Like you're not doing anything that like kids aren't doing. You know
What I'm saying is you may have shared that story before, but I had never heard it. So I'm like whoa. And just like I mean I'm trying to think about her perspective too. Like oh my god dad oh my god.
Walker Hayes
And I will tell you this man her dad
Uh I'll start crying if I tell you how much I love him. I mean I got to tell you man.
Ken Rideout
I can see that.
Walker Hayes
God watching him. Granddad.
Yeah.
I would love to love my grandkids and and them love me as much as that's happening. I think I saw him driving a tractor with you in the bucket and your son's throwing passes to you from the roof of the house.
What a snapshot.
Ken Rideout
Everyone listening to this, yeah, the grandfather's driving the tractor, you're in the bucket and the son's throwing passes from the roof. Like, if I showed that to my wife, she would be like, in a million years, you would never be comfortable with this. I'd be like, he's going to fall off the roof. You're going to drop me out of the bucket. Do you know how to drive a tractor?
Walker Hayes
I need to be more like you and be like, let's have fun. But from that snapshot, man, just the love in that 30 seconds, uh, it's just it's awesome, man. My relationship with Doug is it's precious. I mean, it I want to take care of that man as he gets old, even if he hates it, you know? I
I just love that guy. And we've been through a lot. I mean, we have
We've been we've been through a lot of broken uh stuff and um yeah, I just hope he knows. He's the best, man. He's really good. He's really inspiring grandfather for sure.
Ken Rideout
Oh, I've got a similar No, nothing like what you described. But when we uh my wife and I went to Italy before we were married, I don't know if this this incident happened right after or right before we got married, but we had a beautiful brand new penthouse apartment in New York City. the Hudson River. It was stunning. And we had this Apple TV was brand new. This is probably 2007. And we had been to Italy and we're like, we rented a little rubber boat and at some point she was laying on the boat topless.
We were just by ourselves out in the Mediterranean. And I was taking pictures of her. She knew I was. And I was just like, but you know, all this [ __ ] was new. Where do you was there? Was it a hidden picture?
And so we had new Apple TV and I'm like, "Oh, you guys should see the pictures of our um you know, you could scream stream the pictures onto the TV. I'm dead serious. So, the pictures are like going through in a slideshow, like floating in slow motion, you know, they're going up the screen
And I thought I had deleted the picture and all of a sudden
There she is laying topless and literally her dad's like, "Who is that?" And I was like, I jumped up and ripped the HDMI thing out. I'm like, "Oh my god, I was clowning around and snapping pictures and we were just fooling around on on the boat. It was a joke." And I was like,
And then I guess like the next day I just had to make lighter. I like, "Guys, I'm so embarrassed." Like,
You Yeah. My wife probably would have never mentioned it again. I'm like, "No, no, no. This is never going away. I have to like address this right now."
So, when I hear your story, I'm like, "Oh my god." Like, I would just die from embarrassment. But,
Walker Hayes
Yeah, on the dating thing, my sons, they've done well. You know, they've had a couple girlfriends and they've they've they've really been respectful. But I guess, you know, what I don't do with my kids is I don't look at anybody they've dated. I try to not think you're so lucky you get to date my kid because look, my kid's not perfect. And I will tell you that the two Leela's had two I don't even know if you call them boyfriends, but they're awesome. I mean, I fall in love with them.
One was a boxer.
Ken Rideout
Oh, really?
Walker Hayes
And I was like, date this guy. I was like, anybody messes with you, bam. Like, one jab and you're out. I was more sad, you know, when um the two guys were out of the picture. Um but yeah, she, you know, she pretty picky.
Ken Rideout
Well, I would say to your point about like you're so lucky to date my kids, there definitely is the element of I mean, you live in a small town in Tennessee and like you're a legitimate country music star. The other kids are going to be thinking, "Oh, you D Walker's son or daughter, dude. That must be so cool." Like you start to I would start to think like,
"Are they just trying to like get closer to us?" I don't know. you you seem like you're like well adjusted. There is a a sign where when you're trying to do too much for your children and protect them and avoid them falling off the roof throwing the football, it's a sign of your own insecurities and controlling like I I I'm doing them a disservice by not letting them figure things out by themselves and I know that. the feeling of maybe as a reflection of my own childhood where I didn't feel protected.
Like I want so much to do the right thing by them, but I continue to try to shelter them. I mean, god forbid they have a disagreement with another kid or a fight at school. I'm like, who did it? You guys all better get down there and stomp his ass together. You fight one of us, you're fighting all of us. I don't even care if we win the fight. We're all jumping in. And my wife's like, "Are you insane? We live in Brentwood. There hasn't been a fight here since like the 60s and even then it was like, you know, no punch is thrown.
Walker Hayes
Yeah.
Ken Rideout
And I'm like, when I grew up, got kids were fighting. It was like not a like friendly place. And I just I think I'm so traumatized that. But I admire your
The the strength of character and the security that you showed to say,
Yeah, like I love my kids doing everything. I want them to be I want my kids to be happy, but I'm also like
I've got to get over this like fear of like something going wrong. I'm just so nervous that something emotionally trying is going to happen to them that I try to protect their emotions.
Talk to me about the the business of music like just because I don't know anything about it. So like when you're working at Costco and you're writing songs like how do people in music in your position like how did you start making money? Not necessarily how much but like how do you earn money?
Walker Hayes
Um I'd say the majority Well now you know the
Ken Rideout
How does it work? So you write a song for uh Lee Bryce.
Walker Hayes
Okay. So, if I want if I write a song for Lee Bryce, I hope it's a single
Ken Rideout
And let's say it let's say it's a single and it does really well. It's like on the charts.
Walker Hayes
If there's three of us that wrote it, I'll probably get a $300,000 check first year.
Ken Rideout
Okay.
Walker Hayes
So, you know, and then I continue, you know, you you get paid on spins of that. Now, if I wrote it by myself, probably get a million bucks, you know, I mean,
Ken Rideout
So so if you wrote like a song like Fancy Like and you did it all by yourself, how much could you make from one good song? A lot of money. Yeah.
Walker Hayes
Really?
Yeah. I mean, if if you wrote fancy like by yourself, you're making millions. Yeah.
Ken Rideout
Because And you produced a video and put it on YouTube.
Yeah. We did that. I mean, but I had a label, you know? I was on a label. But I think a lot of people underestimate how much money people make from YouTube. Like there's people making those ads when they run on YouTube. Like you can make money.
Walker Hayes
Here's the thing though. The way I sustain like the way I have employees is touring.
Okay. Yeah, touring costs a lot. I mean, a bus is 300 grand a year.
So, if you got four buses, you you better make many millions of dollars, you know, when you go out. Same with trucks and stuff like that. So, yeah, touring is how, you know, that's how I pay a band. Um, merch, you know, we sell merch and stuff like that. Uh, owning your masters is like I share my masters or the label owns my masters. My record deal is up in April. So, it might be cool to release some music and own my own masters, you know, that's a new thing, an independent artist.
Yeah. But I also as you gain like the jelly rolls, you know, you find yourself like me doing the the beer or the clothing line, you know, there's these side things that um I invest my time and my energy and my passion in and my social platforms in that really they don't cost me anything, right? But we grow them, you know, like little gardens, you know, left and right. Um, and so I write with other artists. Um, I get cuts here and there on things like that, but that's where the bulk, you know, of my income comes from.
Like this clothing line took a second to to grow, but we got new warehouse space, you know.
Ken Rideout
Tell me about the Tell me about the clothing. What's it?
Walker Hayes
Oh, it's called Duckbuck Co. And I drew I drew a duck with antlers, and that's the, you know, that's the logo. But dude, we're killing it. This this destroyed this year. I mean, we could not keep it in stock. And so we have hoodies, shirts, girls clothes, everything. It's awesome. Guys clothes. And
Ken Rideout
So when you conceived of it,
Walker Hayes
Yeah.
Ken Rideout
What happens? Did you get investors? Did anyone come in?
Walker Hayes
Basically, I got two a guy named Katon who is really in that like materials, getting them cost effectively, building great products, good quality in the line of what I want to do. I'm an I love athletics, you know, so I don't want to wear anything that if you're like, "Dude, let's let's play a game of pickup." I want to be ready. I don't wear boots. I'm ready to just jam.
And so I was like, "Hey, that's the kind of clothes I want." Kind of Woods
Southern hunting leaning athleisure. And so we partnered and it's kind of a 50/50 thing. And I obviously have every incentive to never stop promoting it. Y
And then he just makes it better and better every year.
Ken Rideout
So he runs the business side and you kind of run the marketing side.
Walker Hayes
We value each other's input on both sides. If he's like, "Hey,
Don't market this cuz we're out of it. Market it," you know, we do those things. And then
Um and then I have the uh the fancy like athletic beer, which I think this is our third year. It's been a limited kind of offer, 10,000 cases a year, but my intention is to continue until Athletic, you know, the that that particular beer is so popular that they must add it into their arsenal, which dude, I mean, it's it's the be it's the best one they have.
Ken Rideout
And we'll add those um links in the show notes where you can find the apparel line and the Athletic Brewing, your limited run of Athletic Brewing. influence Bill to make it a staple of the
Walker Hayes
relationship that came from a DM. I tasted their product. This was like 2 years after Fancy blew up
And just hit them up on Instagram and that's I got to give credit to that company. You know, I feel like we're in a in a society that still has kind of a one foot in the old way of doing everything. you just send a message like you know it's no it's no more like I'll have my team call your team
Like when I want to collab with an artist yeah like Connor Price I love him we're friends now we we've we've done many songs the way I did it there's a guy on Instagram and I was like bro I love your stuff
You want to send each other some tracks and we did
And that's how Athletic you know came about it wasn't some like manager was like you two team it just I literally hit them up and they were like, "Oh, really? Like athletic? Well, we'll send you some." And I was like, "Well, I want to I want to stock the buses in it." And then I was like, "Well, I kind of want to get in the beer industry. You know, how do I You want to make one?" And then we made it and
It's just been, you know, off to the races ever since. But that I think that's what that company has going for them is they're they have an informal but very I mean they take it seriously. They they don't do anything on accident.
But they're open. their hearts and minds are open to like, "Oh, you want to do something new, like a different, you want to do something that's never been done before? Yeah, let's try it."
Ken Rideout
The people who aren't adapting to this new world in DMs and the accessibility, it's like one, you can either like poo poo it or you can embrace it. Like two years ago, I was on a flight and I'm looking, you know, scrolling through Instagram. I see a like or a comment on a reel that I put from The Rock. No, followed me. The Rock's following I go, "This obviously isn't the real Rock." It was right after he did an interview with Rogan. So, I sent a text like, "Hey, brother.
Loved your interview with my friend Joe Rogan. I've been lucky enough to be friendly with Joe Rogan over the years. Hey, loved your interview. I really enjoyed the conversation and thanks for following."
Walker Hayes
Yeah.
Ken Rideout
This guy sends me an effing voicemail back, dude.
Dude, it was like, "Hey, brother. Rock here." I was like, I call my wife. I'm like, "Shell, get the kids. Get the kids. Get the kids. Put it on speaker." You are not going to believe who just left. I'm like, "Listen to this." And I mean, as soon as he starts talking, they're like, "Dude, no way." And my daughter's like, "Dad, that's AI. You must be pranking us." And I was like,
I unless someone's pranking me. It was crazy. But to your point, like the thought that
You would get a DM a voice memo from like one of the biggest movie stars in the world was so crazy to me. And he was like, "Yo, I get motivated going on to your Instagram page." I always try to think about that. But if someone
Earlier you said people you admire,
Walker Hayes
You know, and that's they do like and and it
Ken Rideout
Oh, yeah.
Don't have a lot of
Walker Hayes
Yes.
Ken Rideout
Just me.
Walker Hayes
Yeah. Do not put me on mic without guitar.
Yeah.
Ken Rideout
Speaking of comics, I had I interviewed a guy called Dan Lamort last week who's like uh has Aspberers, but he always jokes about having autism. And dude, he was like 350 pounds. He came in here, he was like he was like the same exact size as me. He lost like 200 lb running, doing trail running and you know, not winning races, but like out there running. And it was just such an inspiring cool story to see someone who was
Just so but you know, he's like an extremist, right? He was like, I did everything to the extreme. I wanted to be a comic. I went right to the comedy seller in New York. I loved food for a while, so I just pounded food like I was going out of style. And uh I love comeback stories which is what the whole point of this podcast is the other side of hard. It's like people that have overcome adversity and like done hard things and like what you described earlier like the magic is in the struggle.
It's in the process of trying to get better cuz if all you're trying to do is write that big song, you're going to be happy for a minute once the song is. But you know how fickle people are. How long after Fancy Like Me was in the charts that people were like, "All right, what's next? What's that?"
Yeah. You know, nothing new. All right, next. Who Who else do we have? Like, how do you deal with that pressure of like, "Holy [ __ ] I got this is addictive. I got to write another hit."
Do you feel that kind of pressure?
Walker Hayes
Yes, that is a um I think that's one of the most underprepared for feelings maybe of my life. I would have said, "No, I don't feel like I don't feel like a hit song's going to make me look in the mirror and like me more." You know what I mean? But
It didn't. You know what I mean? like you you have a hit song and like you said, Laney and I I felt like we worked a lot like we worked and we strove to get okay let's let's say the biggest song in the world which it was you know and and so we tasted that and I will say a very overwhelming feeling was you mean I got to do this again you know what I mean
Ken Rideout
Took me how long to get this one
Walker Hayes
Right and then also you know I'll be very honest about the, you know, you have your moment. You're playing 80,000 seaters. You know, you your your phone is literally like like all day. You're like, "Dude, I might have to get another number because I can't." And then
They the the calls come in a little slower, you know, and it's like it's been a minute since you did Fancy Like, you know, and then the the shows, you know, get a little smaller. But at the same time, man, I um I'm okay with that irrelevance. Again, ego death. Like I was telling you, like I needed to get over me anyway. You know what I mean? And and um again, it reminds you what did you wake up to do today anyway? I wrote I wanted to write a song.
I mean, that's what led to Fancy Like anyway, is I just woke up and said, "F the free world. I'm going write a song about Applebee's." You know what I mean? And that's that's what I do every day. And I and I love it. Yeah.
And I love to come home and go and I still do this. I come home and I'll go, "Dude, I talk to this dude on this podcast. Like, we need to read his book. We'll read your book, you know, and we'll
Ken Rideout
Oh, kids can read it."
It's dude, we we read children read it.
Walker Hayes
We read we read all kinds of stuff. But, you know, I I love I'm very lucky. I'm a man who gets to share his life with his family. They They know it all every day. Dude, Leela, check out the song I wrote. You like it? Do you not like you know and and that to me that's enough.
Ken Rideout
How was it bringing your daughter up and letting her dance around with you on stage?
Walker Hayes
Priceless. I mean, I've looked at her many times and um you know, I say things like, "I can't wait till you have a kid." And if if I get to meet that kid at and the kid turns four or three, you know, I'm gonna be like, "Let me show you a video like look what me and your your mom did when she was 14." like we blew up the earth like every every like Shaquille O'Neal you did this dance you know and so there's a possibility there might be a show about just about my family like our life
Ken Rideout
Oh my god that would be a good show cuz your Instagram is so good it's good wholesome like family fun
Walker Hayes
And it really is and we and listen you know on Instagram you see the habit you see the tricks and the highlight splashes we fight we fight a lot like me and Laney we fight in front of kids They my kids know a lot of bad words. I'm working on my language. Uh like you said, on on top of of every of every every dream you ever had, there's a lot of insecurity there. You know, you wake up, you're like, why write another song? I'm never going to write fancy like again.
You know what I mean? Like there's a lot of little things that I do struggle with that we struggle with that my kids struggle with that uh I want to share. Like I I want people to see like it's a grind, dude. having a having a being a dad, being a husband, it's so messy, but it's literally the best. It's the best ever at the same time. So, that's that's kind of something in the works that selfishly as I grow older, I look at it and I go, you mean I can just be a dad and like that can be my job and maybe travel a little less?
Ken Rideout
Did this does the family go on the road with you when you tour? They did for three years and then last year. Yeah. We were on the bus every such a because I've gone on a couple tour stops with Jelly and the thought of a whole family being on a tour is crazy to me.
Walker Hayes
Dude, we had the craziest life. I mean, we would get all six kids. We get on a bus on Wednesday night, four dogs, and just roll. Man, we would roll town.
Ken Rideout
Must have loved being on that tour bus.
Walker Hayes
Had a blast. I would walk off a show. I'd be like playing Jenga in the green room. Yeah. And then my manager would be like, "Five minutes, we got to pray and get on stage." And then I'd go and me and Lilo would do the show 90 minutes, come off stage back to that game of Jenga, you know, and then we'd skateboard in the parking lot all night, do tricks, like whatever, get on the bus at 3:00 a.m., roll to the next town, wake up, do it again.
I mean, it was it was a blast. Yeah.
I mean those days given the opportunity like say say by some fluke chance I have another song you know that puts me working like that. Yes. I mean I'd do it all again.
So great.
I mean that was
Those were incredible. Nice.
Ken Rideout
So awesome man. I'm like I'm I'm thrilled to get to know you, man. You have an awesome like childlike energy that's enthusiastic where I'm like I need to be more carefree and like go with the flow like this guy, you know? I'm always like soon as I get this deal done then I'm going to relax or as soon as this race is over I'm going to take a week off and it's just like that that never happens no matter what. Like I've won races called home my wife's like what happened?
I'm like I won. She's like you won your age group. I'm like I won the whole marathon like the day before I turned 50. I won the Myrtle Beach Marathon and she's like that's incredible. I go I ran 230 in 30 seconds. Like I can't believe I didn't get under 230. And she's like
Listen to yourself. And she'll like hang up and be like this is crazy. like you can't win, which means I can't win. Like, and then I'm like, come to my senses. But I just love your um enthusiasm for life and the accountability and the like I'm just I'm I'm totally enamored with the way you're doing it. And I definitely want to come down to your house and bring my ho campaigns up.
Walker Hayes
Shoot my decoy, dude.
Ken Rideout
And I have two. I told you when I moved here, I went to the Glock store and I'm like, "Hey, I want to buy a gun. Uh I'm in Tennessee. I that's what you're supposed to do. All my neighbors have guns. And I was like, I'll buy it, but can you show me how to shoot it? And I was like, and how do I put the bullets in? I was such an idiot. But
Again, I think that that's the difference between people who have success and people who don't. Like, I was never afraid to look stupid. And I tell my kids that when my youngest son was getting into wrestling, I'm like, I'm going to tell you something right now. If you're afraid to lose, if you're afraid to look silly,
You're never going to be the champion. the champion can get his ass kicked, learn the lessons, come back. You never lose, you just learn. Losers lose. Cry about it, and then quit.
Walker Hayes
Yeah. I tell my basketball team that every every practice. Uh don't be afraid to look stupid.
Ken Rideout
Nope. You can't. You got to get out there. And that goes for everyone.
Walker Hayes
Be loud, obnoxious, yell ball. Be be that guy, you know? And then I would challenge you. Yeah, man. I understand that feeling of of finishing your marathon. Um, but I think God, you know, we have a humans have a weird way of taking gifts and, you know, making them things that we are slaves to.
Ken Rideout
That's right.
Walker Hayes
For, you know, fitness has been one for me. Alcohol has been one for me. Music is back and forth, man. It's a tugof-war. One day, one day I've got it by the horns, but the next day it's just slinging me around. Um, so
Do relax, man. Just enjoy it for why God gave it to you. God gave you your legs so you can go run in the snow, you know, like you did.
Ken Rideout
I want to come down and uh Come on. I want to write a song with you.
Walker Hayes
I Dude, I'll write a song with anybody. That's one of my favorite things to do is see someone. Have you ever written a song?
Ken Rideout
No, but that's I'm I'm being serious. Like I'd love to sit down with you, observe and watch and have some thoughts and ideas. Like I've never like had a creative outlet, but I would love to say like, "Hey, would this something like this work? I have some ideas in my head that I don't know how to like convey."
Walker Hayes
That's one of the scariest things about writing a song is you talk about looking stupid. You know, it's one thing for you and I to go, "Oh, I can pick up that weight and go try and fail. Who cares?" So would most people. Songwriting is a ne I still to this day 20 years I still get a little butterflyish even with my best writer friends going hey I have this idea I have this feeling and and putting it out there you know what I mean because it's scary it's like have you felt it too am I weird am I alone you know what I mean
Ken Rideout
I would always say I know I'm weird but
Walker Hayes
Yeah yeah yeah but you know what I mean that's a that is a I think a lot of people aren't songwriters because they don't want to go in a room and go,
"Man, I miss my dad and I want to talk about I want to share, you know, you know, but um
Ken Rideout
When you're writing the song and so like let's say you got an idea and you're writing about pick a topic." Let's say you're writing about running and you're writing the song and talking about suffering and you like get to a point where does the group kind of say like what could the next line be here? Like I'm feeling like I want to quit but I'm fighting that urge. Do you guys collab on line by line or does someone write it and then you guys play around with the music?
Walker Hayes
Like how?
It's both. Like somebody will come in and maybe say, "Hey man, I want to write a song called Running."
You know, what are you running from? Or what are you running towards or are you running around and around? And then everybody's like, "Dude, totally. That's kind of like, hey, here, you know, me and my wife need to have a conversation and I'm I don't want to have it." You know, why don't you want to have it? Well, I'm running from that. I'm running to this. Where are you running to? I'm running to work because I can control work. I can't control my wife, you know, and and then everybody relates.
I wish that's one to to me one of the most saddest things about songwriting is you get the song and the song will outlive both of us. We'll die and the song will live on.
But that those hours that you spent talking,
That's gold. I mean, it is like it's better than gold. It's like I wish you could hear I wish you could hear fancy like the stuff we talked about that day. It was magical. It's almost like the song is tiny in comparison to the conversation we had. But it's just like you and me.
We just hung out but we we have a song to take from it, you know. But yeah, those moments in a writer's room, they're really quite special because, you know, when you think about it, dudes, if I see you in the wait room, you know, I'm not like,
Dude, I'm struggling with this.
Ken Rideout
Yes.
Walker Hayes
But you do when you write a song. Yeah. You you all of a sudden you just
Just kind of pour it out. And uh it it may take a minute, you know, you haven't seen each other for a while. You're like, "You good, man? How's the holidays?"
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
Walker Hayes
And then it gets deep. It's like, well, seeing my mom wasn't great, you know, and I needed to go do this, but I didn't do it. And, you know, we got the kids gifts, but they didn't really care. And you know what I mean? Like,
Ken Rideout
Yeah, dude. There something about like the brotherhood of having relationships with other men when you can be yourself and be vulnerable and like, you know, not be afraid to get choked up. And like a good friend of mine called me yesterday, said his wife has lymphoma. And it was like super emotional for both of us. And I was like, I just think there's like a lot of posturing with guys. And I think most of the posturing stems from guys who are insecure cuz someone who's secure and confident is like, "Yeah, I'm a guy, but I'm not naive to the struggles that other people might be going through.
Not to like overthink things and be like overly sensitive about like there's there's the moment like I said with my wife where I'm like,
"Okay, we're going to cry about this. We're going to be sad, but at some point we're going to be tough." Like at some point we have to find some resilience and toughness, but that doesn't mean we can't acknowledge the emotional journey. Like a couple years ago, I went to a place of Nashville called on-site workshops. I heard this. Yeah. All right.
Dude, life changing. I walked in. I mean, I didn't want to go. It was like I was going to the electric chair. So, I go and check in. They take all your electronics. And I was so
Like almost like a psychosmic thing. I was so nervous and and scared about going that I didn't do any research. I was like, I'm just going. And I was like, I don't know. They got to take my phone. And it sounds stupid, but I was I was oblivious to it. So, they took everything and they sent me to my room in the little cottage. It was nice, but there's three double beds in there. And I'm like I go back. I'm like, "Yo, I I thought that I had a single room.
I don't want to be this close with other people in this emotional week." And they're like, "Yeah, okay. There's your room." Bearded handsome guy, super athletic looking, comes in. I'm like, "Hey, what's up, man?" Oh, yeah. I'm like, and I didn't recognize him at first. And I'm like, "Did you um you played sports?" "Yeah." "Are you playing in college?" "Yeah." "Uh did you play after college?" Cuz like this this guy's a freak. And he's like, "Yeah, I played for the uh Jets and the uh and the Broncos." And I'm like, "Oh, Eric Decker." And he's like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." Cuz you're not supposed to ask names.
And I'm like, "Oh, dude, big fan. Love all your work." We became like super close friends. He lives right down the street there.
Man, it was emotional. But like having another guy there that I really could relate to cuz neither one of us on the surface people could be like yo you guys are lucky you know like must be nice
But it's like no man everyone's struggling with their own [ __ ] The most traumatic thing that's ever happened to you is the most traumatic thing that's ever happened to you. It doesn't have to be something like a sexual assault. Your brain has enough room for trauma and the trauma whatever you face fills the room. Yeah.
Hey, I'm not as happy as I should be and I got some [ __ ] that I don't know what it is. It was lifeanging for me. Have you considered going there?
Walker Hayes
Uh same for the same reasons that you didn't want to go. I haven't gone. And you know, there's a lot of uh
You know, you probably felt like this. I don't want to to think about some stuff, you know, like growing up or whatever, you know, I'm I'm like, it's there.
We can just leave it there, you know, but I'm sure it affects stuff. And uh but yeah, I I will I will say a man like a friend, a guy friend whom you respect, that you feel safe around is priceless.
Yes. And sadly, I don't think a lot of men have that.
Ken Rideout
No.
Walker Hayes
And uh and even if you do, you don't have many in this life. You know, and so I mean I I I love that. Um and I think Yeah. I think guys,
That's just tough to find. You know, you have to find yourself in a weird
Situation where you're like,
You crying? Is it okay to cry? You know what I'm saying? And so, um, I have a fear of, um, that place I've heard is great.
Ken Rideout
I had those fears and when I when I went there, I was like not happy and like I was joking with the guys in my room. I had a I had a little schedule with the days on it and I was exing them off like we were in prison and I'm like, guys, we only have one more wake up and we're out of here. And then when I left, I was like,
I don't really want my phone back. I've never felt like more at peace. I came home like, dude, I cried the whole way home calling my wife. I'm like, I can't believe all the mistakes that I've been making. Like, it's one of those things like, hey, my back's killing me. You need back surgery. I don't want to get back surgery. And then you get it and you're like, how was the back surgery? The recovery was terrible, but now I can do everything I wanted to do.
It was like a psychedelic experience. Like DMT. You're like, how was it? Scariest thing I've ever done in my life. Like, I I literally died and then I came back to life and I was like, oh my god, I'm not I'm not dead. This is the best feeling ever. Cuz I was just dead.
Walker Hayes
Yeah.
Ken Rideout
And you're like, wow, would you recommend it? I'm like, "Not unless you feel compelled to do it, cuz it was the scariest thing I've ever done." So, it's kind of like that.
Walker Hayes
That's like communicating with my sons, man. It's like if I have something to say like deep
Ken Rideout
Yeah.
Walker Hayes
I'm like, "This is weird," you know, and then Yeah. But then I'll say it, you know, and I just blurt it out and I and I'll I'll say this is weird, you know. We'll be in the car and I'll be like,
"Dude, I I got to ask you, you know, you struggling with this or you know, and um
And be like, "It's pretty weird, right?" You know, it's pretty quiet in this car. Uh or if we're throwing something Yeah.
That's always helpful like to have a task, but like you said, it's um it's not our human nature to jump into those situations, but they heal. I mean that is
Dude to like get some things off your chest to feel again to feel safe just to have that conversation the bond strengthens tremendously you know you your eye contact with your son is just different after that you know and um but gosh that my I I just think honestly all the things we're talking about
The scariest things in life they're the greatest like
Ken Rideout
The obstacle is the way
Walker Hayes
Yes
Ken Rideout
That's like that Ryan Holiday book.
Walker Hayes
Yeah.
Ken Rideout
The thing that you're avoiding the most is what you actually need to do.
Walker Hayes
Yes.
Ken Rideout
Otherwise, it wouldn't have a strong effect on you.
Walker Hayes
Dude, this guy, this guy named Mike, he was my supervisor at Costco and he said the um the right answer is 99% it's the hardest.
Ken Rideout
Yeah,
Walker Hayes
That was pertaining to stocking.
But I if my when I die, my kids will be like, "My dad told me that every day." Because it really is true, man. It's like
Ken Rideout
The easy road never pays well.
Walker Hayes
I know. I know. The right answer is usually the hardest and it's I mean it pertains to everything, man. Diet, uh, working out. Don't want to work out tonight. Diet is the perfect example.
So many um, alcohol again, marriage, like
I don't really want to work this out. You know what I mean? But you should.
Ken Rideout
I get angry when I'm like, why is this hard? This should be easy. It's all your fault,
Walker Hayes
Right? Oh, yeah.
Ken Rideout
Well, listen. I've taken enough of your time today. This is one of the most fun conversations I've ever had. Honestly, I love it. I love it. I hope we can be friends. I'm not afraid to be
To be honest with you. Like, dude, I like being friends with this guy. I like people that are uh real and I love everything you're doing from the music to the way you raise your kids and the fact that you have an effing trampoline in your living room. If you're not following Walker Hayes on Instagram, you are missing out on what life is all about. Cuz when I see it, I'm like, this guy, he's got it right. Living out in Tennessee, barnaminium, basketball court in his behind his living room.
It's just I love it. And I'm looking forward to meeting your uh kids and wife. And I'm serious about coming down and bringing all my weapons.
Walker Hayes
Get it, dude. Bring the Hoyt. We'll we'll compare Hoits.
Ken Rideout
I'll wear some of my uh my camo that I bought to go hunt.
Walker Hayes
We need to tag Hoyt. I love Hoyt, dude. They're They're all
Ken Rideout
We need to tag your brand.
Walker Hayes
Oh, the Duck Buck. Yeah, let's Duck Buck. I'll hook you up, man.
Ken Rideout
Duck. Okay. So, the Duck with Buck Horns. I got it.
Walker Hayes
Yeah. Duck Buck Co.
Duckbuck Co.
Ken Rideout
And uh Walker Hayes on Instagram. And then the the athletic brewing is called Fancy Life.
Walker Hayes
It's just a normal light beer. It's so awesome. It It is delicious. You can crush them all summer. Low calorie like just crisp. It's good.
Ken Rideout
Well, thank you for doing this. Appreciate. Thank you to Bill Shoefell for making the intro. And uh
Excited to have a new friend in Nashville.
Walker Hayes
Come on.
Ken Rideout
Boom. Thanks for being with us. And by the way, if you if anyone feels so inclined, they want to hear more about my story, you can check out my new memoir, Everything You Wants on the Other Side of Hard, available everywhere you buy books. Officially goes on sale March 10th, but like I said, you can buy it now everywhere. And um I'm going to have book events in LA, New York, Boston, and probably Miami. And a big one here in Nashville, March 5th at Piranis Books.
If you're in town, I would love to meet you. Come by, get a signed book, and uh make me look good in front of my wife and children. Thanks for being with us. Boom. All right, guys. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. Please take a quick minute to subscribe to the podcast wherever you're listening. This is a new show, so subscribing makes a huge difference. Please also take a minute to give it a review and leave a comment on Apple Podcast and on Spotify.
You can also subscribe and leave a comment on YouTube. Again, this is really important for us, especially now since we're just getting started. You can learn more about me, this podcast, and also find links to purchase my upcoming memoir at the other sideofheart.com. My new book is called Everything You Want Is On the Other Side of Hard and it comes out March 10th.
Available everywhere you buy books or again go into the other sideofhart.com. There's multiple links there where you can find all the retailers carrying the book. Thanks a lot for being with us and we'll see you next
Key takeaways
- A stable paycheck did not automatically make Hayes feel fulfilled or present at home.
- He kept writing through years when music income could not support a family of six.
- Hayes and his daughter built the Fancy Like dance together during the quiet stretch of the pandemic.
- A hit song changed his career but did not remove pressure about what to write next.
- He treats sobriety as ongoing work, especially when he is away and feels tempted to drink.
- Grief reshaped how Hayes thinks about time with his family.
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