Alcohol Addiction, 100-Mile Races & A Broken Back

Rich Roll2:54

Sure. Uh yeah, my life at the end of my drinking career was an absolute [ __ ] show. You know, it was very bleak and dark. Uh but also I often say like my my you know, my drunkalogue like isn't that dramatic. Like it's kind of pedestrian, you know, what happened to me. Especially you just shared with me this insane story of of another guest that that that um you interviewed for the show. And you know, my story doesn't measure up to that at all in terms of like the drama and and the stakes.

Uh because I was raised in you know, an upperly mobile family and my needs were met. Um and so, I'm always I'm always like conscious of the fact that that um the suffering that I experienced was always within the context of some degree of privilege, you know, what I mean. And I want to point that out up front. Like I'm I'm very aware of that. Um but that doesn't mean that the, uh, you know, the emotional state, um, that I experienced where I was, uh, was any less than than than what it's like for anybody else who's in the throes of alcoholism or substance addiction cuz it was really bad.

Like many other alcoholics, like my drinking career, you know, began very innocently and realizing like the first time I took a drink like how much better I felt and how much more confident and and just self-assured it immediately, you know, made me and it and and what I often say is that it was like I was like this kid walking around thinking everyone else had this rulebook for life and I was just bewildered and confused and I really didn't know how to connect with other people and the minute, you know, I got a couple beers in me, it just felt like, oh, I have it sorted out.

Like this is what it this is what I think everyone else feels like all the time, you know. And so, it worked for me and the early years of my drinking, you know, like I I would be lying if I didn't say I had a lot of fun. Like it it it taught me how to be a social animal and somebody who could like go to a party and talk to a girl and crack a joke and all of those things that just felt impossible to me, right?

But it didn't take long before it turned on me and, you know, it began slowly by eroding like my relationship to my goals and things that, uh, you know, I aspired for myself just became secondary to always, uh, being, uh, obsessed with where the next good time was going to be. And, um, it took me to some, you know, really dangerous and bleak places, but to just sort of paint the picture of what it was like at the end, I was living in Los Angeles. I still somehow was holding on to a job as a lawyer at a law firm, uh, but it was I was going to get fired soon.

Like I, you know, I was just uh, you You I was completely unreliable in every in every way and I had a I had no relationship with telling the truth at all. I had had a marriage that went sideways on me. Like I uh I gotten married, but that marriage ended on the honeymoon when I sent my you know, this person who was supposed to be my wife home. You know, it's like there's lots of like weird it would take hours to like contextualize all of that.

Um but I was basically sleeping on a bare mattress in a in a in an essentially unfurnished apartment um in Venice and had no friends of of any significance at that time. I they had all abandoned me and I was hanging out either with myself or with lower companions. My parents and my family had completely detached from me. They had had enough and you know, they said, "Listen, when you're ready to like do something about this, we're available, but until then like we just cannot stand by and like watch you destroy yourself in this way."

Rich Roll6:46

That was heavy and that I think that played into, you know, ultimately my decision to get sober. Like oh, like this you know, this thing that I took for granted was no longer available to me. And I knew that they loved me and I knew that they were in a tremendous amount of pain. Uh but I was powerless to stop doing what I was doing and I think for people who you know, are unfamiliar with the disease of alcoholism or don't have somebody in their life that suffers from this, uh they think like why can't you just like why can't you can't you see what's going on?

Like just fix it. Just stop doing this, right? And and and what they miss is that like of course I knew I was an alcoholic. I'd known I was an alcoholic for a long time. That didn't mean that I was ready to do anything about it. Um so here I am in this apartment and I was a daily drinker at this point. Like I would wake up uh so hungover that the only rational thing to do was to have a vodka tonic in the shower because otherwise, like, you know, that it was I was just nauseous and you know, I wasn't able to sleep.

I was having beds bed, you know, bed sweats and spinning and hallucinations and all of that. But, like, one stiff drink in the shower in the morning and it was like, "Oh, I feel like a normal person now." And, you know, that was followed by a tall boy between my legs as I drove to Century City for my job. And then, in this office building, sneaking out to, you know, go find a bar and drink during the day and just biding my time until it was reasonable it was a reasonable hour for me to leave and then go do what I'd been thinking about all day.

It was just to go home and get as drunk as possible. And then, who knows what was going to happen. Like, for me, that was the appeal. Like, like, not like on one level, it's like, alcohol is very reliable. It's always going to deliver this this experience, you know, that that my body craved and my mind would obsess about. But, there was also this question mark, like, the chaos of the No, like, what I like to do is start drinking so much and then I would go on some kind of autopilot and then I would end up in some strange circumstance somewhere with strange people that I didn't know.

And, you know, cars would get lost or crashed and cops would get involved and sometimes I'd end up in bed with somebody. But, I would always wake up not knowing what I had what had happened the night before or where I had been, let alone like where my car was or anything like that. And, I think there was something about that that appealed to me, like, anything could happen, you know? You know, and and all kinds of stuff did, right? Um, and it was all kind of like coming to a correct, you know, kind of a a screeching halt because a lot of this I was fairly new to Los Angeles and I was used to like driving drunk in all the places that I'd lived and getting away with it.

I'd gotten away with it so many times. I've been pulled over and let go or snuck away or just figured out like strategies to drive my car drunk. like I'm it's so humiliating to admit. But, in LA, you're you're not getting away with that. Like, you know, they're going to sniff you out quick. And so, I got two DUIs in a period of like 6 weeks. Um and the LAPD don't [ __ ] around. When they pull you over, it's not like, "Oh, here's a fresh-faced kid.

Let's be nice to him." It's like they're assuming that you're a gangbanger, that you got a shotgun, you know, in between the seats, and that there's, you know, a there's a there's a brick of heroin somewhere in the car, and that you've got your hand on a gun, you know, and like you're you're ready to, you know, do some business. And they treat you accordingly. So, I ended up, you know, going to jail overnight both times. But, when you get two DUIs in in rapid succession like that, like they're taking your license away, and you are going to jail.

Like, you are not getting out of that at all.

Rich Roll11:39

So, uh the first the first instance I um it was like 3:00 in the morning. I I left a bar on Melrose and I rear-ended um an old woman at a stoplight at the intersection of Crescent Heights and Melrose. Um police arrived, accident, like the whole thing. I'm handcuffed to this um um bus stop bench, like that's right on the corner. So, every time I drive by that, I look at that and I'm like, that's the bench, you know, like I I'm like so connected to that evening.

And I blew a.29. Like that's that's how like that's my BA was so high. And then I'm like, all right, but everyone gets a DUI, right? That was my first one, like no big deal. Six weeks later, second one, I blow a.27 driving the wrong way down a one-way street in Beverly Hills at like 3:30 in the morning. Um but in this case um the arresting officer uh takes my wallet. He's looking through my [ __ ] right? He pulls out my business card.

Not only does he know where I work, my boss is his lawyer. Like the attorney that I was working for the most, guy called Skip Miller, was representing the LAPD in all these excessive force cases that were going on at that time in the mid-90s. Um and so, he called my boss and he's like, I picked up one of your boys. And so, on Monday morning when I went back to work after having spent, you know, the night in jail on Saturday night or whatever and like having a day to like clear my head before I had to go back to work thinking no one's the wiser, my boss calls me into his office and he's like got an interesting phone call over the weekend, you know.

And I was like, I couldn't believe that this had happened and I was like, that's it, you know, like I'm getting fired. This is the end of my, you know, lawyer career or whatever. And to his credit, he's like, listen, man, I don't, you know, something's going on in your personal life. It's not my business. I don't even really want to know, but you're in big trouble. You got to solve it." Because I was second chairing a trial with him. We were getting We were getting ready for a trial on this big case, and I was second chair.

Like he needed me

Rich Roll13:40

In order to you know, like like go to trial on this case. And so he's like "I want you to call this guy." And he gives me a business card. And it was it was a business card for um Jerry Chelef, who at the time was one of the biggest uh criminal defense lawyers in Los Angeles. Like he was the original lawyer for the Menendez twins. You know, it's like and and he was also um involved early on in the OJ stuff. And Robert Shapiro was a lawyer in in my law firm also.

Like I used to work for I work I was I worked for Robert Shapiro. I worked on stuff with him.

Rich Roll14:27

LAPD and Beverly Hills PD. So he was involved in a lot all those all those excessive force cases back then, yeah. So I go see this guy Jerry Chelef, who I couldn't afford. I didn't have enough money to pay him. Like I was going to have to figure out how to pay this guy. And and my first meeting with him, he sits me down and he's like "Two things." I go "What?" He goes "First thing, you're criminal." Nobody had ever said that to me before. You know, I'm Mr.

Like I went to Stanford and Cornell Law School. Uh I mean, this guy knew what he was doing, right? I'm like "Don't you know I'm like don't you know who I think I am?" He goes "You're a criminal. Uh and he goes I I'm I'm a good I'm Basically he said like I'm a good criminal defense lawyer, but like he's like I'm not a miracle worker. Like you're going to jail." I was like I can't go to jail.

Rich Roll15:17

Freaking out.

Rich Roll15:21

Jail. I'm not wired to make it in jail, you know? So, yeah, I'm having a mild panic attack. And then he goes, "And secondly, you're an alcoholic." And he was the first person who kind of said that out loud to me. It's like not that I didn't know that. I was like I knew that, but there was something about it being spoken out loud. And he's like, "So, you know, we're going to do what we can do. And in the meantime, like you're going to go to AA meetings and you know, here you're going to like get this card signed and you know, we have to like build a case that at least you're like trying to you're you're recognizing like the circumstances that you're in." And so it was a scared straight situation and I would go to AA meetings, but I wasn't And I was trying to like not drink, but I wasn't It wasn't like I was I wasn't really doing the

Program. I wasn't like really interested in being sober. I was just scared at that time. And this remarkable thing happened. Like So, I have these two court cases and they're in separate jurisdictions. One One is the the the courthouse is in um Beverly Hills and the other one is even though the the accident had taken place on Melrose, it was like in West LA or something. And uh And the lawyers are like, "You know, we're trying to make sure that like the whoever the judges are in these things don't know about the other one, you know?

Like that's our only play here." Like in 2025, that would never happen cuz it's all computerized, right? So, but honestly, a miracle happened, which was the uh the docket, like the the file for the first case got lost. They couldn't find it. And so they couldn't um pursue charges against me in either case.

Rich Roll17:10

But all I know is that my lawyers were like, "You're never going to believe it. Like they can't They literally can't find the file for your case for one of these cases. So, the only one that went forward was the one in Beverly Hills. And because it was being treated as a an isolated incident, um we were able to plead out and I got like, you know, I got community service and a bunch of stuff like that, but I but I avoided jail time. And like that doesn't happen.

So, what's going on? You know, it's like I was given this like blessing, this gift um that still to this day I'm like that is astonishing that that happened cuz I really did I really should have gone to jail for you know, and not for like 30 days, like probably for, you know, but not like years. It probably would have been like a 90-day sentence or something like that.

Rich Roll19:46

Yeah, crazy lucky.

Rich Roll20:52

Yeah, I mean, I would have been I would have been lunch meat, you know. So, I you know, I dodged that bullet. Um and it still was a you know, a very long time before I actually got sober after that. Uh and I think there's the fear, yeah, but there's also the deep shame, the humiliation, the embarrassment, but really like the shame. And the shame powers your desire to like keep everything secret. You know, you just compartmentalize this stuff. You pretend like everything's fine. You don't tell anyone what's really going on.

And you just hide all these things from everybody. Uh which, you know, creates all this dissonance in your life. And you the truth of the matter is like I was just way off the reservation with my behavior. I was also in a career path that like I probably shouldn't have been and that was like making more me more unhappy and making me want to to drink more and more and more. And I was pursuing like what I thought I was supposed to be doing, you know, for somebody who had grown up the way that I grew up and had the education that I had, which is like I'm going to go be this lawyer and this is what it's going to be like and this is what my life is going to be like.

And uh and you know, the universe had had other plans, obviously. But, you know, I had to get eaten up quite a bit. And so, you know, you're somebody who has changed your life in certain ways and I've had a couple different This is like, you know, just one of a couple transformations that I've undergone. And when I think about like change, which is always like a a recurring theme and topic on my show, like you know, how do you get somebody to change? Or like how do you make changes for yourself when you want to?

And why is it so hard? And it's just all I know is that like I have to get bludgeoned by the universe before I wake up enough to be willing to do anything different. The way I kind of phrase that is it's only when the pain of your circumstances exceeds the fear of, you know, change and doing that different thing. Because it's scary to do something different. And you'd rather sit in the pain you're familiar with than, [snorts] you know, venture into the pain of like not knowing what's going to happen if you do something different.

And you're just like clutching onto this this like path and this, you know, frame on the world and your behavior like it's life or death even though you're driving it like right off a cliff.

Rich Roll24:10

Yeah, it's I always struggle with how to tell this story cuz in order to really understand it, you there's so many details that have to be explained and I don't want to spend an hour telling this story. Uh but I will say this. First of all, uh this wedding took place after those DUIs had occurred um and I had, you know, gotten scared straight and had put together um a little bit of sober time even though I I wasn't really doing the program.

Rich Roll24:39

So, I had gotten engaged. I was living in in San Francisco as a lawyer. Um I moved to Los Angeles for this job and not long after I moved to LA, I got engaged to this woman who who lived in Palo Alto who I'd been seeing for, I don't know, probably a year and a half or something like that, at this point. Um, and the idea was that, uh, we get married and she was going to move to Los Angeles. But, I'm living by myself in LA, which is like, you don't want, like, in a new city by myself.

That's not a good headspace for an alcoholic, right? Like, uh, like, oh, here's a whole new canvas where I can like paint my chaos, you know?

Rich Roll25:20

No, no, no. Um, and and a high-pressure job, you know, high expectations, incredibly long hours, um, and a very interesting place. Like, this was, uh, a law firm where a lot of like LA's most high-profile cases were going down. Like, the the these like, uh, um, LAPD excessive force cases, but also a lot of very interesting like entertainment stuff. And like, like I said, like, Robert Shapiro was like right there. And like, I was assigned cases and I was working with him on stuff. Like, it was a very interesting place.

It just like, I wasn't built [snorts] for that this world. But, anyway,

Rich Roll26:14

Yeah, it was just a It was a coping mechanism for like, cuz deep down you know constitutionally your life not living the life you're supposed to be living. And like, to really confront that is is too painful. So, let's just like medicate our way through it. Because everyone else seems to be able to show up at work and do it and they seem fine and kind of like they enjoy it. Like, I don't know. Like, I just I'm trying to like, you know, why can't I enjoy it the way that they, you know, anyway.

So, I'm engaged. It's proceeding towards this wedding. Um, but of course, it's a long-distance relationship all of a sudden. We're seeing each other less and less and less. Um, you know, I had a history of not being honest with this person. She, you know, finds out about these DUIs and so she, you know, we, you know, she becomes aware of like kind of what she's getting involved in all of a sudden. And you know, of course that's terrifying to her. You know, like, what am I I'm going to marry this guy who's doing this stuff?

And but in my mind I'm like, I'm I'm sober now, you know.

Rich Roll27:13

She hasn't seen the the the super dark stuff,

Rich Roll27:16

You know. And so it was like clearly there's like, you know, I'm sure she's like, I need to get out of this.

Rich Roll27:21

And I I just think that she didn't know how to get out of it. And so kind of the train had pulled out of the station and it was in her mind like kind of too late to pull the plug on this thing and she had she had made this like decision in her mind that she was just going to let it happen and then figure out a way out of it afterwards, you know. So this is not like the best strategy, right? But but I'm unaware of this and I'm like, we're getting married and and I'm starting to realize like she's a little like not like we're not it doesn't feel right, you know, but I don't have a lot of tools, you know, to navigate like relationships and emotional, you know, kind of struggles, etc.

And so I'm going along to get along. And you know, at the rehearsal dinner, it's like I could she didn't really seem to want to be around me. Like you know, it's like all the indicia were there. Like I needed to like I should have like called the whole thing off, you know. And I think she was wanting she was sort of purposely giving me the signals hoping that I would do that. But like that's not what happened. And she said to me like, hey, I think it would be best if we don't sign the marriage certificate.

Like this is before like the the night before the wedding or whatever. And I was like, what are you talking about, you know? Like what do you mean, you know? And so here she is trying to figure out like the only thing that she could do to try to protect herself, you know, this poor woman. It's like this is where it gets difficult to really understand or or to try to understand why I would behave the way that I would behave. But I got kind of I just wanted it to happen.

I wanted everything to be fine. I wanted her to be happy. So, I was like, I agreed to this, you know, even though like why would you do that, right? The person who was who was marrying us was a federal judge who was a family friend of hers. And he had recently been nominated to the ninth circuit. And he's African-American and it was a big deal. So, he was going to be the first like African-American on the ninth circuit bench.

Rich Roll29:13

You know, he was in that process where they vet you for that. So, you know, all eyes are on him. So, it felt a little bit weird like this guy's a judge and like you know, there's like not so comfortable about that, but I agreed to it. So, so we have this wedding and it's in Palo Alto. Everybody I cared about in the world is there. I have like 3,000 groomsmen, you know, it's like the whole deal, right?

Rich Roll29:33

Nobody is, except I'm like it's clear like something like if you were there if you were there, you're having a good time. Like you don't know what's going on, but if you were actually paying attention, you're like this is this is messed up. Like you could tell, right?

Rich Roll29:46

So, that night, you know, the whole like like she was so offish that when we kind of get to the hotel for our like, you know, our our our our evening, right? And it's like you do that you all pick her up and cross the, you know, like whatever. I sort of joked. I was like, do you want me to do that? And she just kind of like scoffed at me and like and I was like, oh man, like what what have what have I done?

Like what is what's happening here? And we were supposed to go to Jamaica on this honeymoon and I was like, I'm not going anywhere with you. Like we got to talk, you know? She was not interested in talking to me. Long story short, like the honeymoon was paid for and in my mind I I guess I just said like, well, when we get there like I can talk to her. I got to understand what's going on. We go to Jamaica. She wants nothing to do with me.

We're we're staying in the same room, but like, you know, she doesn't want to talk to me. She doesn't want to touch me and I'm I'm like give her space, give her time. Like I'm going to allow her to like get into a headspace where at least we can have a conversation about whatever is happening with her. And I just couldn't see you know, my part in this at all. Like, you know, like why she would feel the way that she felt. And ultimately, I it just got to the point where I was like, I can't take it anymore.

And I was like, you you need to leave. Like, I we can't I can't I can't be around you right now unless you're unless you're willing to talk to me. And she said, "Fine." And she left. And suddenly, I'm alone in Jamaica in a hotel room. And I'd been sober at 6 months at that point. And and you know, I just rung I rung the front desk of this hotel. And I was like, you know, bring me a 12-pack of Red Stripe. And that was it, you know, and I was back out there.

I was so emotionally devastated by this and humiliated and embarrassed and ashamed. You know, I was going to have to go back home and like tell all these people that you know, this this marriage isn't happening. And like, you know, like how embarrassing, you know, I was just so humiliated, you know, cuz I I just didn't think any anything like that would ever happen to me. And I think that the the emotional scars of that were were so deep. Like, I had to drink. Like, I couldn't deal with that.

The reality of that sober. And so, I it was I think it was probably another like six or eight months of really heavy drinking before I finally just got to that point where I was like, I can't live this way anymore. But drinking at that point was like a survival mechanism. Like, it's like But that was my bottom. It's like, oh, well, you get sober when you hit your bottom. Like, that was really my bottom. But the day, you know, I guess the day I decided to like reach reach out and ask for help was a pretty kind of normal day in the life of an alcoholic.

It wasn't like the night before was some chaos. It's just like I finally was like ready to I was sick and tired of being sick and tired and ready to like do what I didn't want to do, which was like ask somebody else to help me.

Rich Roll32:39

But that's what sobriety is. Like I I really I have a lot of compassion for this this poor woman who, you know, found herself in a situation she didn't want to be in and and just didn't really have the ability to save herself and really wanted me to do the heavy lifting here, but I was in no condition. I didn't have the awareness to to do that. Um and I could be And listen, I could be mad at her or what It's like I was, you know, I was mad at her for a long time.

Um and now I I truly, honestly, like I all I have is compassion for her and I hope that her life now is is super happy and fulfill fulfilling and meaningful. Um because you know, had that not happened, like I wouldn't have the life that I have today and I had to go I had to go through that um in order to, you know, become the person that I am today. And so when I think about challenges and obstacles and and and things that happened to us, um I'm always looking at them through the lens of them being like opportunities to grow and and and evolve.

And you know, I I think life is better when you say this isn't happening to me, it's happening for me, and it's my job to figure out like what that for is and and leverage that for my for my growth and my evolution as opposed to, you know, saying how terrible it is. And And the truth is we don't have perspective when we're in it. Like everything's bad when it's happening and then you look back through the crystal clear lens of the rearview mirror and you're like, "Oh, that was the best thing that ever happened to me." And I'm not This is not to say that like Look, terrible things happen.

I'm not trying to be polyanna about bad [ __ ] I just think that we're not the best judges of positive versus negative, you know, when we're in the in the crux of those like difficult moments, but um they are powerful levers for growth if you're willing to like grab onto them. And I think we're here to grow and evolve. And and I think we, you know, on some level uh perhaps we signed up for this ahead of time, you know, and it's like this is what I need to learn in this incarnation of life and life is going to throw me this thing and the reason it's doing that is because this is the lesson that I've been refusing to learn that I need to learn in order to kind of go to the next level of my, you know, self-actualization.

Rich Roll37:22

Um yeah, my parents who who were who had said like, "Listen, we don't want, you know, we can't be involved in this anymore." But what they did do, uh like they started going to Al-Anon meetings and then they found a an addiction medicine specialist, like a a psychiatrist in Los Angeles, and they said, "We found this person if you're open to go going to see this person." And I agreed to that. He had an office down by LAX, and the reason why his his office was by LAX is because uh a lot of his a lot of his patients were pilots.

So, just put that in your pipe and smoke it, you know what I mean?

Right? So, anyway, um he was amazing, uh a long time, you know, sober guy himself who uh had been, you know, working with people like myself forever and ever and ever. And he was another straight talker who was like, "This is what you need, you know? Do you want it? Like if if you want to get sober, this is what you're going to have to do." And and I was making deals with him and bargaining with him and like, "Well, let me just try it one my way one more time, you know?" But I did make this This is the hilarious part and this is like a lens into the alcoholic mind, like like I kept relapsing and coming back, but I was honest with him.

And then he's like, "You really need to go to treatment." And I was like, "Okay, I'll make a deal with you. Like I I I think I got it this time. Um but if I relapse one more time, then I will then then I'll do it, you know?" And he's like, "All right." Um so sure enough I relapsed, of course, right? And but but but Ken, I am a man of my word. And he means it. So I was like I went to him and I was like, "I'll do it now because I told you that I would." Like thinking I'm this upstanding citizen, you know?

Like it's just absurd, you know? He must have been laughing the whole time. But anyway, he got me sorted out with a bed at this facility and I um got on a plane and flew up to flew up to Portland and a van picked me up and drove me to and dropped me off at this place in the woods uh where I thought I was going to be there for a couple weeks cuz, you know, I got important [ __ ] to do,

You know? Get a blow dry and uh and and get back right get get back at it, right? Just need a little pipe cleaning and um

Rich Roll39:55

Hard to to, you know, hear that though when you're in that state. But I was there and I was like, "I'm here. I don't ever want to be here again. So I'm going to like do what they tell me to do, you know?" And one of the first exercises was like, "Okay, we want you to write down 10 incidents where uh you know, something crazy happened. But like start off with like, 'Here's what my plan was.' You know? And then and then like here's what happened, you know, some calamity, right?

Here's how it made me feel. And then the final and most important step was like, here's [snorts] what here's how it made other people feel or here's here's, you know, how other people were impacted by that, which is like for an alcoholic, you're just like, leave me alone. Like it it's nobody's business, you know, and like you have no concept of how your behavior is, you know, wreaking havoc and creating pain for all these other people in your life. And so I was really honest in that exercise and I had to get up in front of a bunch of people and like read this.

And afterwards, one of the counselors pulled me aside and he's like, I know you think you're going to be out of here in a couple weeks, but like

Rich Roll41:00

He's like, I've been doing this a long time. He's like, you you have a pretty advanced case of alcoholism, uh, based upon what you've shared, like the amounts that you were drinking and all that. And uh, and you know, it's a it's it we don't typically see this in people your age. Like this is what we see in, you know, 65-year-old men who've been drinking their whole lives. And we think that, you know, you're free to go whenever you want, but like we think that you should probably stick around, you know, longer than maybe you might imagine.

And I was able to hear that and I ended up staying in that place for 100 days and it changed my life and um, I'm you know, eternally grateful. And I've gone back a few times to like go to meetings there and stuff like that. So it's just yeah, it was a it was a crucible moment in my life.

Rich Roll41:53

That's danger zone for me, um, because that's when I know that I'm indulging in my ego and self-will. You know, it's sort of like So what I mean, let me just contextualize this a little bit. Like one of the things that you learn in in in sobriety is this notion of surrender. Like you have got Like, your way is not working, dude. Like, you got to let it go. You have got to recognize the fact that you're not actually in control of anything. And you got to release it to a higher power, whatever that is in your mind, and like let something bigger than yourself in to take over the reins of your life, which is a very confronting and threatening concept.

And, you know, it it it it gets conflated with like, oh, you're giving up on life. And it it's not that. It's sort of like it's a humbling experience that allows you to have a little bit more objectivity on like your errant ways. And there's a mysticism and a and a spiritual quality to it. Um but when I look at my life, the fact that I'm sitting across from you, and we're in this incredible studio, and I have this beautiful family, and these kids that are healthy, and and, you know, bills that I can afford to pay, and opportunities that, you know, I never thought possible, you know, kind of coming my way.

Like, my life is so far beyond anything I could have possibly imagined for myself. And that allows me to really get that like this Yeah, I worked hard, but like this didn't happen because, like, you know, [clears throat] I orchestrated it, you know? Like, there's something going on here that is that is beyond like my ability to manifest. Like, I'm very clear. And the minute I start thinking like, I did this, and this is me, and look at me, and all of that, like that's leading you back towards a drink, you know?

Rich Roll43:54

Yeah, I mean, like the the the the gratitude the gratitude.

Rich Roll44:11

Mhm.

Rich Roll44:15

I think that you shared with me before the show that that you know, the core idea behind this is to like be helpful to people who are feeling stuck or a little bit lost in their life or are in that place where they can't see a way

Rich Roll44:30

And it's easy for you and I to sit here and like trade crazy stories and talk about how hard it was but I think for the person who's watching or listening there's that idea like yeah but they're different or they're special or yeah it was really hard but they they they kind of knew you know what they were what they needed to do or how what those steps they knew what it was going to look like you know it's like no. You don't get that like when you're in that when you're laying in the [ __ ] [ __ ] like that and your back is up against the wall and everyone's running for the hills nobody is picking up the phone when you call them and you know the cops are knocking at the door and that you know you know that guy's going to call you and fire you like all that stuff like no you're in free fall dude you can't see

Your way out of this.

Rich Roll45:17

Thing about alcoholism it's like hey man here's where it's headed you know jails institutions and death clear as day like you've already you've already you've already like you've already checked two of these boxes you know what I mean like what's left? And it's like the joke in AA is like do you want to be happy joyous and free? Or do you want to you want jails institutions and death? Sobriety happy joyous and free keep drinking jails institutions and death. What do you want? And it's like I'm going to need to get back to you on that.

Rich Roll46:20

But all of those are like academic ideas. Like when you're like brand new,

Rich Roll46:24

It's just like, "Dude, do you think you can make it another hour? Like Okay, call me at Call me in an hour, you know? Like don't That's all you have to Like your only job is for your head to hit the pillow that night without taking a drink or doing

Rich Roll46:40

And like that's it. Like nothing else is relevant. And I will tell you for like the first 2 years of my sobriety, I had no idea what the [ __ ] I was doing. I was going to like two meetings a day. I would go like I would wake up in my place in Venice and I would drive like it is after I got a treatment and I would drive to the Log Cabin in the in West Hollywood for the morning meeting and I made coffee.

And that was like, you know, a crazy place. Like this meeting But it was exciting. It was like, "Oh man, what's going to happen?" You know? And then I would like go to breakfast with people and we would sit for an hour and a half and shoot the [ __ ] or whatever. But I'm like, "Why am I What am I doing? Like where is this heading? Like where am I going?" I had no anchor or or sense of direction in my life. It was just like all I know is that I'm going to like go to the Log Cabin in the morning and that's what's important.

And everyone just said like, "Just keep doing this. Like all the other stuff gets sorted out if you make this your first priority." But like after you've been doing it for a year,

Rich Roll47:39

Even when you're like, "Oh man, I got my chip." Or great and it's like, "Okay, but like why are we doing this?"

Rich Roll47:45

Yeah, you have no I was I just thought like I made peace with the fact that like, "Hey man, forget about the lawyer job, whatever I'm doing like I have to be like okay. Like Hey, if it's just this and I'm going to these meetings and like I have enough money to like buy breakfast for myself and whatever. Like, I have to be okay with that, you know? And it was only when I, you know, really like made peace with that, that I think I, you know, opened up um the possibility for for something more.

And looking back at it, it's like, "Oh, well, you needed to like really have this foundation of sobriety in order for you to do these other things or whatever." But like when you're in it, you're like, "My life has hit a dead end. And like I don't think I don't think it's ever going to be different than this." You know, that's the experience of it.

Rich Roll50:42

Over 10 years.

Rich Roll50:45

Yeah, so I got sober at 31. Like I said, those first years was like, I'm just building my foundation of sobriety. I'm grateful that I didn't get fired from that job. You know, they let me go to like for all of the hard-ass, you know, kind of hard talks that I had with that partner that I was working for, he's like, you know, when I was like, I need to go to treatment, he's like, go, you know. And so, they were very supportive of that, and I'm incredibly grateful for that.

So, when I got back, I went back to that job. I knew that like the law was not, you know, for me, but like I needed a job, like I had bills to pay and stuff like that. And so, um And so, my idea was I need to get back to being that person that I was before I [ __ ] up everything, you know? Rather than like, how do I grow into the person that maybe I'm meant to be? Cuz I'm so caught up with other people's perception and expectations and this person that I thought I should be, this upwardly mobile Like, you know, a lot of that has to do with like the way that I was raised, etc., but you know, I I wanted to be a responsible member of society who was upwardly mobile in this, you know, kind of fancy law firm where I was going to be a partner and this is what it was going to mean and

This is the car I was going to drive and I would be able to flex in this way and that and eat go to the fancy place for lunch or whatever. That's as far as my thinking was going and and and to some degree I like accomplished that. Like I became somebody who could tell the truth and show up on time and all that kind of stuff. And it took until, you know, basically when I turned 40 to have a like another reckoning, like another bottom where I I had this existential crisis.

Like I was so like it looked like my life was pretty together but it really wasn't. Like A, I was, you know, just extremely unhappy in this chosen profession which, you know, I left that firm. There were other kind of like iterations of being a lawyer. But I was just like, "What am I doing?" This is I just felt my life was devoid of meaning even though I'd met my wife and, you know, I had a lot of good stuff going on. But I also hadn't been taking care of myself.

I I was like you were doing endurance sports and I was doing like endurance eating, you know, like I was like eating fast food. Just you know, I I didn't become like an obese guy but I looked like a guy who like works too many hours in a law firm. You know what I mean? I was like eating fast food and Chinese takeout late at night and like just, you know, that was my comfort amidst this uncomfortable kind of life that I'd created for myself and you know, I had to play that out until I was ready once again to, you know, kind of pay attention to how I was living and make changes.

Um and so that all transpired like basically right at the time that I turned 40 when I kind of had this staircase incident where I couldn't walk up my my up the stairs up to my bedroom without having to take a break and winded and all this kind of stuff. I've told the story many times. But it reminded me of that day that I got sober and I and I know that and and I was able to recognize like, "Oh, this is like a like this is a perishable moment, you know, like I have I'm being like invited to take action in the in a similar way that I did when when, you know, I decided to go to that treatment center.

And because I'd had that experience, I was able to recognize that and honor it. And I was like, I need to do something now. Like I I I was I had this willingness. I was like, I need to do something. I feel like I I I'm I'm motivated to do something right now. And I also know if I wait, that's going to go away and I'll I'll forget about the whole thing. And so, that's what set me into this world of like trying to change my relationship with food and that led to kind of restoring my vitality.

And with all this energy I suddenly had, like realizing that I wanted to revisit what it would like what it would be like to be an athlete. Like I'd been a swimmer at Stanford and competed at a high level, but my alcoholism kind of prevented me from ever reaching my potential. And in my mid-40s, I had kind of been reborn and wanted to pursue what that might look like. And so, that's when I got into all the ultra-endurance stuff.

Rich Roll55:10

And then literally literally So, you know what was going on with me.

Oh, of course.

Rich Roll55:16

Guy like he wants to go run and ride, but like I don't you know, he's going to want to like throw the hammer down and like, you know, like it's going to be a dick measuring I projected this whole thing onto you. And I was like, this guy's first of all, he's way more fit than I. He's going to kill me, you know. And I was like, I I you know,

I don't know if like you just intimidated me. That that's that's why maybe I was like reluctant to like you know kind of jump into the

Rich Roll56:02

Something like like you would train with Lance Armstrong where you were like I'm going to [ __ ] kill this guy, I'm going to [ __ ] kill this guy and I was like there's too much alpha energy for you know for my like you know zone two disposition.

Rich Roll56:38

But this is like that wasn't the perception that I had of you and that's not your fault. Like that's just something I projected onto you and you're projecting something onto me cuz I didn't get back to you and this is how you know like this is what we do, right? And this is how we [ __ ] ourselves up, you know, because it's it's sort of like contempt prior to investigation. Like you're making a judgment on like what kind of person I am because I didn't get back to you and and I'm thinking, you know, I'm I have this whole idea of who you are that got, you know, disabuse that I did I got disabused of that as soon as I met you, but it just took me a long time to like make you know until that happened.

Rich Roll57:59

Yeah, I'd gotten interested in triathlon. I It was that like oh I'm 40, midlife crisis, like oh you know, maybe I'll do a triathlon, you know, like that kind of thing. Uh and I didn't know what I was doing, but I thought I was pretty fit cuz I had been like working out and feeling really good and I'd lost all this weight. And I'd entered like a sprint triathlon here or there or whatever and I was like okay, time to step it up and I go to this Wildflower race which is a kind of a a legendary half Ironman race in in in California.

Um and known for being a very difficult course.

Rich Roll58:29

And I'm all full of vim and vigor and I have this swimming background. So as soon as the swim starts I'm like I'm going right to the front, you know.

Rich Roll58:37

So I get right up in there and then you finish the swim and it but there's all this chop and so I'm getting tossed around. Like this is not going the way that I thought. And you get to the end of that swim and it it's literally like this this it must be like a 15% grade like up out of the water just to get to the place where you put your cleats on to you know, get on the bike and I get on the bike and and then it's just this climb, you know, it seemed like for it seemed like forever and I'm toast, you know, like 2 miles into this thing and I struggle through the bike.

Um I somehow I finish the bike leg and I get off I get off and I put my running shoes on and I don't make it like 400 meters before I just completely cramp up and I can't run at all or whatever and just like DNF'd and it was awesome because it's like oh you don't know anything about like you think you know and you don't. Um but what was great about that was that it motivated me to like hire a coach and learn and I thought I knew a lot about like how to train because I'd been trained as a swimmer, you know, I'd spent like, I don't know, 20 years in the pool pushing myself and I figured I have an advantage over all of these other people and I needed that reckoning in order to humble myself enough to, you know, kind of have a beginner's mind about this.

Rich Roll1:01:35

Can I address the first part of what you shared with respect to like the addiction and the endurance sports and all that kind of stuff? I think with respect to anything, whether it's endurance sports or work or, you know, choose your poison, um you can use it as a lever for growth or as a, you know, closet in which to hide. So, take running, use running as a proxy for endurance sports. Like, are you are you running to run towards something or are you running to run away from something?

You know, and it can be both things.

Rich Roll1:02:08

And I've had both experiences with endurance sports. Like, it was an incredible lever for physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual growth for me. You know, at a time in which I was very confused, to be able to just be out on my bike or out on a trail for hours and hours and hours alone, trying to make sense of my confusing life and and and and trying to figure out what a way forward might be, uh was really critical in it was a very important piece in a very critical moment in my life.

Um that in many ways like helped save me, you know? And so like all of my pursuits in ultra endurance to me, like I'm like these are spiritual journeys, you know? Like it hasn't it really Yeah, there's the physical stuff, whatever, but like really this was about like me trying to understand who I was and and what I wanted my life to be and look like. Um and it served that, but I've also been the guy who's been the compulsive trainer, hyper competitive, and and have kind of let it become my higher power, and you know, at the cost of other aspects of my life.

Like I was pursuing it, we were financially destitute for years and years and years. We came within 48 hours of losing our house. Like I I put a lot on the line for something like it's like no one cares about, you know? And and I was gambling with my family's well-being in doing that. And I have to like be, you know, I have to really like be honest about the selfish aspect of that. And it's easy to go, "Oh, well, yeah, but it led to this and now it's all good or whatever." But like when you're in it, I'm like, "Am I a piece of [ __ ] Like am I What am I doing?" You know, like what am I doing?

I felt like an insane person and everyone thought we were insane. I wasn't making any money, but I was spending all day training and I had little kids and I can't pay my bills. Like this is part of like not knowing, you know? So much so that, and this is leading up into the back stuff, that at the end of 2011, I had spent the entire year training for this Ultraman race, this double Ironman race where you like circumnavigate the Big Island of Hawaii over 3 days.

And this is a race in which I'd done well in in the past, but this year I was I was in it to win it. Like I was a maniac. I was down to like 156 lb. I was I'll show you pictures of how lean I was. It was crazy, right? And uh I ended up DNFing. Like I got I got I was like too lean. Like I I got like a an it like a sort of uh like a bronchial infection or whatever cuz I was just my immune system was compromised.

I ended up like relapsing a couple days later like at in front of a beach bar in the middle of the afternoon uh while I was

Rich Roll1:04:43

And uh it was a one-day four-beer relapse. It's like the lamest relapse of all time and I ended up in an AA meeting that night, but it was like incredibly humiliating. Like my little kids and my wife saw me like kind of buzzed and like this. And I promised myself that would never happen. And on top of that, I had already turned in the locked manuscript for Finding Ultra, but it had not come out yet. And this was a book in which I talk about like my addiction and my recovery and this book is going to come out and it's going to be like this you know like like it's going to be like I'm positioning myself as like an authority on sobriety.

You know what I mean? And here I in like imagine that. Like imagine like right before your book comes out you go on a wild bender. I am the biggest piece of [ __ ] like fraud. [ __ ] up. Like it was I really went into a shame spiral. And I share that story because you know relapse is part of sobriety and we're human. And I'd gotten to the point where I had made endurance sports my higher power. Like this I was using it to run away from other things and I had placed it above more important things in my life and I'd lost sight of what was important.

I needed to be right-sized, you know? I had to have that reckoning. And as a result of that like it really humbled me and it changed my relationship with my sobriety and my sober community because I was a guy at that point who could go to meetings and I had all the answers and I was sort of like oh he's the guy like you should talk to him, you know? And there's an ego piece to that, right? And I that got deflated fast, right? All we have is today and it really grounded me in that and it's made me a better human as a result.

And that's just another example of like a setback or an obstacle being a lever for growth.

Rich Roll1:07:28

So with respect to the back surgery, like yeah, I had chronic lower back pain for many years. I trained through it for the most part. It's called isthmic spondylolisthesis. It's something that, you know, a certain percentage of people are are born with. It's a little fracture on the bone behind the vertebrae that that kind of keeps the vertebrae together. And so one of my vertebrae, my L5, had slipped forward and down. And it was pinching these nerves. And just so I had tremendous sciatic pain and numbness in my foot um and was told many times that I needed surgery.

Uh but, you know, I live in LA and so it's like, don't get surgery. Like, go see this go see my guy, you know? And so I had to spend 10 years seeing everybody's guy. And uh you know, exploring every conceivable uh alternative modality of healing. Um and it's not that some of these things didn't provide some kind of temporary relief, but you know, basically, when I finally went to the neurosurgeons, they're like, "Dude, here's your MRI, here's your X-ray. Like, see how this bone is doing this?

See the crack in that bone? He's like, I don't care what you're like, no amount of glute activation is going to move this bone back and like resolve that fracture. Like, I don't care you can [ __ ] put pep you could inject peptides and stem cells right into there. Like, it is not going to do anything. Like, you have got to do this." And so

Rich Roll1:08:57

I saw lots of shamans. I did all the stuff, dude. Yeah, and so I'm like, I'm 90 days out from it and I'm glad I did it. I totally underestimated how intense it would be. It was a 6-hour surgery. They they filleted me in the front,

Rich Roll1:09:12

Pulled my guts apart. So, they went in and they scraped out the disc in between L5 and S1 and they inserted this cage and screwed it in and inside that cage is bone grafting material that over time will grow that L5 and S1 together into one bone. And then they flipped me over and they sliced me open on the back and put four screws and two rods in there to like anchor it in place. Yeah. It's been tough. So, I'm only allowed to walk. Just 3 days ago they told me I didn't have to wear my back brace anymore.

So, I've been wearing a back brace all day. And uh the main thing is just how I'd never had a surgery before and like just I've been wrecked. Like I can work half the day and then like by noon or 1:00 it's like I got to go home and I got to get in bed, man. I'm I'm like exhausted all the time. So, I'm just emerging from that. And then, you know, I'll really start to be able to do stuff at 6 months and it takes really a year for these bones to fuse together.

So, I'm benched. I know I don't have to tell you like you know what that does to your mental health when you can't go out and exorcise your demons by, you know, running or doing these other things physical physical things to manage your mental health and allow you to be able to sit down in a chair and have a conversation with someone. What do you What do you do when all that gets stripped away and with it like your attachment to your identity? I'm this athlete.

This is who I am. And so, again, it's just okay. What's the opportunity here?

Rich Roll1:10:39

What's the lesson? What is the thing that I'm supposed to learn here? And I really think that what I need to learn, I know it is, is how to be okay with you like if you are stripped of that identity. Like you're more than just like this person who does these things or whatever and what does it feel like when you have to just sit down and you have to you have to be in that discomfort and you can't just like go out and run and run away from whatever it is that's making you uncomfortable because that's always been my thing whether it's like oh I'll just lose myself in work or I'll just like I'm going to I got this workout or whatever it is or I'm going to I'm going to like say yes to this speaking thing so I can get on a plane and get out you know get out of dodge and not have to like you know like you

Whatever it is like I will use anything my phone whatever. So now it's like okay never in your life have you like really invested in like just being present with yourself and trying to trying to be okay and like love yourself just for existing rather than make it this transactional thing where I only deserve this if I do this or you know look how many people are paying attention to what I'm doing like when you detach from that like it gets really uncomfortable you know and because I can't do that it means that I can't it's it's more difficult for me to be present moment to moment in my life and then if you can't do that like are you really showing up for your wife and your kids to the best of your ability like are you your best self like all of these things and like this has always been my challenge so it's like another sobriety.

Rich Roll1:12:14

You know what I mean it's like oh you could have made this choice earlier but like you weren't paying attention so I'm just going to slam you you know we're going to we're going to we're going to like literally scalp you open in order for you to like sit down and pay attention what I'm trying to tell you and it's like okay I'm here. That's the that's the kind of exploration that I'm in right now and it's really difficult like I also being 58

Rich Roll1:12:38

I can't run you know I can't I have to really like be okay it's like I look in the mirror and I'm like well that's not awesome you know that's that's a little saggy dude you know like cuz you know stuff stuff starts to happen at this age and and instead of being like, "Well, I got to get in the gym immediately and rectify this." being like, "What if it's okay? You know, it's This is where you're at right now. Are you Can you be okay with that?" You know?

Rich Roll1:13:38

You know, we all want to like hold on to that physique and you know, hopefully, you know, when I when I have permission, I'm going to get right back on it. You know what I mean? But I think the thing is, you know, I I said it earlier like you can you can you can use running to run toward something or you can use it to run away. And insert fitness or whatever your thing is. What happens is people have certain life challenges. They find their way to Ironman.

Ironman changes their life. It's just like the greatest thing. It It has taught them so much. It's improved their life. It's given them a community. And they love that community. And so many lessons are learned that that you can translate into all these other areas of life. But at some point, you have to understand that's a way station and you've got to move on. And like where are the other Like okay, like if I could change in so many ways and do these things, like what else is out there I need to learn.

And I need to be courageous enough to not get stuck in this community or in this place and have the courage to like like sort of okay, now now I need to like not identify with that and figure out where the other um where my other blind spots are. You know what I mean? Cuz I think you see a lot of people they have this they have this remarkable experience because of this thing, but then they stay there. You know, it's like they identify themselves with that.

And I'm not really I'm not disparaging that or really judging it. If it's giving your life meaning like go for it and that's great. But I do think it ends up being an impediment to the growth that's otherwise available. So, for I think that like when I look at you and I I say this with love and I'm not I'm not telling you what to do like I this is just an observation, but I think there are beautiful lessons available to you can if you have the courage to hold your relationship with like running and fitness and like your your results and your performances a little bit loosely.

Um because I think by by overly self-identifying with all of that um and you're kind of indulging in this like fear of other people's opinions and they're like making judgments about who you are based upon your fastest marathon time and all that. Even like the self-awareness knowing like it's all [ __ ] doesn't matter. Like you're still you're still like anchoring yourself there, right? And I think there's all these beautiful gifts and experiences and challenges available to you if you could just like kind of just like just I'm not saying walk away from it or stop doing it, but just like maybe stop holding on to it so tightly.

Rich Roll1:16:21

We all know it. You're [ __ ] fast. You're always going to be faster than everyone else or maybe you're not, who cares or whatever. And but the thing is like you're a beautiful guy irrespective of any of that stuff.

Rich Roll1:16:33

And I I don't hang out with you or want to be around with you because of your PRs.

Rich Roll1:17:20

The only way that I can continue to do this and remain enthusiastic about it is is by you know, basing my decisions about who to have on the show purely on my curiosity. Yeah. Cuz everything else has diminishing returns at this point. And it's like that's the only thing that and if and if I'm not curious and excited to be talking to the person, then it's not going to be a good experience for for the listener or the viewer anyway, right? And I've been doing it for so long.

Um and you know, my curiosities are varied. And so it's not like uh it's really about like where what do I need to learn? What gets me excited? Um what am I interested in? Who do I think is has a unique personality or or uh set of experiences that um I could learn from and perhaps the audience could learn from. Um and I'm really trying to I think I think there was a purity to podcasting for many years that is now like it's very different now.

Rich Roll1:18:19

And uh you know, I'm of two minds on of it. On the one hand, like I could have never imagined that this medium would would would be as powerful and as mainstream as it has become and that's just a remarkable thing and I'm a I'm a beneficiary of that and and uh and very privileged and grateful to be in the position that I'm in. But, it's become this thing where like there's just millions of people, uh, making public access TV shows.

And, uh,

Rich Roll1:18:51

In order to get people to, uh, notice and pay attention to what they're doing, there's a certain set of incentives, uh, to match up with an algorithm that favors a certain kind of guest and a certain kind of conversation. And, in order to be competitive, like you kind of have to program your show accordingly. And, I'm a competitive person, and I want to be noticed and seen, you know, as much as the next guy. Um, and so, those incentives are very, um, tempting and intoxicating. And, you know, I'd be lying if I didn't say like, well, let's let, you know, if I play this game, like what does that look like?

And, I'm I'm now emerging from a phase of experimentation with the show to realize that all I really want to do is kind of take it back to its original roots, uh, why I wanted to do it in the first place, and and stay true to that, which is to have these like long-form meaningful conversations that maybe meander at times and and could be a little bit more focused, but, uh, but are always heart-centered and and authentic and and hopefully honest and real. Um, and sometimes that doesn't always match up with, uh, the appetite of of what YouTube is looking for or a particular algorithm, and and and I'm okay with that.

You know what I mean? Because I want to be able to keep doing this. And, I also want to be somebody for people who have listened to the show or watched it like can feel that there is that integrity there, that I'm not like creating a crazy title and trying to trick people or, you know, induce some, uh, you know, dopamine cycle to manipulate people into like watching something that maybe they he even want to. You know what I mean? Like like I'm just over it, you know what I mean?

The world is the way that it is and like I'm I'm I really enjoy what I'm doing and and honestly like I I really do want to stay connected with the why. Like not I think there's so much focus on like growth, you know, how am I going to you know, getting new subscribers and all that kind of stuff that that that a lot of creators are losing sight of like why they're even doing this in the first place and I'm pretty clear on the why which is that I'm trying to like create a human connection that leads to something meaningful that will impact you know, at least one person in a not insignificant way.

Rich Roll1:21:33

The anxiety is isn't a negative anxiety. It's sort of like the you know, like the anxiety that you have when you're preparing for a race. Like when you've you know, prepared hard to do well and I take the preparation seriously and I don't take the guest appearance for granted nor do I take the attention of the audience for granted. Like there's zillions of options out there, right? And so you know, I think out of respect to the guest and out of respect to the audience, uh, you owe it to yourself to show up ready to go.

And so yeah, I don't I don't I don't I'm not neurotic about it, but like I'm always prepared. Uh, and I would say to a fault at sometimes. I've I've learned and discovered that um there's diminishing returns at being too prepared because if you're so prepared you already know every story, you know, the answer to every question and it's easier to kind of tune out and not be present or be bored, and that creates a flat or or to like assume that the audience already knows this cuz you're like you read it, and then you you forget that like they don't or whatever, and it it makes for a less dynamic experience when you can leave a little bit of mystery out there so that when somebody said, "Oh my god, what?

Like tell me that. I didn't know that." You know, and then it takes on an energy of itself, and I think over preparation is just insecurity like masked. Like if you're if you're so neurotic, like you'll over prepare cuz you're so afraid that you might look like an idiot. You know what I mean? Uh and then it's like taking your ego out of it and not like, "Oh, I'm here to be smart and show the guest how smart I am and how how well I prepared." Like you're You look good by making the guest look good, and and you have to like, you know, uh make yourself subservient to that and get out of the way.

Like you're in service to the audience, and you're providing a public service, and you do that by serving the guest and and making them look awesome. Like team them up so that they look great.

Rich Roll1:24:12

I love you, Ken. That was awesome. I appreciate it, and I'm excited for this podcast journey that you're been on and and uh and and the book coming out and all the exciting stuff, man. You deserve it. You worked hard for it and uh you're beautiful man.

Thank you, brother.

Can I leave the audience with one last thought?

Rich Roll1:24:30

Like cuz here's my insecurity, right? It's like, oh, this is about like you told me I had it down. Like this is about like, you know, we're talking to the person who's stuck and and and, you know, kind of sharing experience, strength, and hope around like how you how you emerge out of that. And I think it would be remiss if if we didn't end this with some parting words about what that experience is like and and and maybe a way to frame it because as we talked about earlier, like when you're in it, like you can't see your way out.

It's very confusing. And you think that at some point there's going to be this road that's just going to appear and it's all going to be clear and like this is where you need to head and you can see, you know, what's on the other side of, you know, the next way station or whatever and it just doesn't work that way. So, if you're stuck or you feel like I, you know, you can't see a way out of your situation or you're just on the verge of like throwing in the towel on whatever dream or ambition that you had, like don't quit for before the miracle because you're not supposed to know all these things.

You know, like it's rigged this way. Like you don't get to know. You know, it's like, yeah, but like can you just tell me a little bit about how this is going to turn out? It's like, no, you don't get that. All you get to do is take that next step, you know? Do the next thing that's right in front of you to do even if it's like the tiniest stupidest thing ever because the only way that that path will continue to unfold in front of you is if you are willing to like take that step and then one brick gets put in front of you and like then tomorrow you'll know like what that one thing is that you can do.

And that's the only way. It's like you're walking around with blinders and you've really got to connect with your intuition and get clear on the things that you can control and can't control and realize that all you really have domain over are your actions, your behaviors, how you're responding to the world around you and and comport yourself accordingly. Try to be true to yourself and and you know, honor yourself by taking those little steps every single day because when you look at someone like Ken's life or you know, choose whoever you look up to, it just looks like these people took huge swings and it worked out and they're like giant leaps and all this kind of stuff, but it's not like that.

It's drudgery, man. It's like stumbling around in the dark doing like that tiny little thing that no one's going to notice, but you just did it a bazillion times over and over and over again and that's the truth about how you emerge out of a dark place and build a life and discover meaning and purpose and fulfillment and happiness and all of these things that that we want and so desperately desire, but you know, feel like are out of reach. It's really in the little things that you're doing every single day.

So, don't lose hope and stay in it and the fact that you tuned in to listen to this or watch this is a demonstration that you have enough self-belief to like at least get through the next day.