He Played for the Celtics on OxyContin

Chris Herren1:56

Which is probably my greatest accomplishment I I out of all of it.

Chris Herren2:09

Huge difference.

Chris Herren2:12

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Herren2:15

Yeah. So that was that was a major accomplishment for me. Um you know, and I I reflect back on everything that I have accomplished in the game of basketball and I think that's what sticks to me the most. You know, it was that first call that you that I will be starting as a freshman. So

Chris Herren2:33

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Herren2:47

Working

Chris Herren3:00

Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Herren3:02

It was an amazing place to grow up in, you know, I I I think for years I kind of ran away from it and I think it almost got you know, when I first got sober and wrote the book, I've never really read through it, but I don't I know that Fall River came out as a place that always became a problem for me and and then I grew up and and I was the problem for Fall River.

Chris Herren3:25

Do you know what I mean? You know, that grittiness, that toughness, that resilience that you grow up with there, I think has been a huge part of the last 18 years of my life in recovery.

Chris Herren3:43

No. I reflect back and I didn't name the book, right? So

Chris Herren3:51

Yeah. Yeah.

So I I look back and I wish I could change the language of it, but um you know, my wife and I did that 15 years ago and it was uh it was probably one of the toughest things I've done in my recovery. Yeah. Sitting down, putting everything down on paper.

Chris Herren4:06

You know, they say like fourth, fifth step. Yeah. I mean, that's you know, 250 pages of it, you know, so.

Chris Herren4:13

Yeah.

Chris Herren4:14

We put it all out there, you know, and you know something? And I say this with humility like there weren't a lot of people talking about heroin, you know, when I got sober. You know, I didn't know I the only heroin addicts I knew were the guys who were walking up and down the sidewalks in in Fall River. You know, I didn't know many heroin addicts in recovery. Um so, you know, when we put that out there on the book and we put it on ESPN on the 30 for 30, it was uh scary.

You know, it was like my wife and I looked at each other like, are we prepared for this for everyone to know our secrets?

Chris Herren4:50

But, you know, I I wrote that book with one thing in mind to to to help, you know, to serve, to make a difference and you know, that's what exactly what it's done for me over the last 15 years.

Chris Herren5:48

Mhm.

Chris Herren6:07

You know, for me it was just I caused great vulnerability for the people who loved me, who were healthy.

Chris Herren6:16

You know, I look back over the last 15 years and with the book, with the documentary, with the speaking, I took them with me.

Chris Herren6:25

They're on that ride.

Chris Herren6:26

Whether they like it or not, you know? And my kids were too young for to to really ask for permission.

Chris Herren6:33

But I I brought them into that world and and part of me has not regret, but just concern, you know? That not every 9-year-old, 11-year-old, 14-year-old has to jump on a ride like this.

Chris Herren6:47

And you know, and they've been on it. And my wife, you know, we we had no money, all right? I mean, we had no lights, we had no heat, we had rough nights. And you know, when you put that in a book, you know, it's out there.

Chris Herren7:03

And it's hard because you know, my wife, Heather, she um she saved our family.

Chris Herren7:10

She saved our family. And she takes not pride in that, but pride in her children. And when you put that type of stuff out there, it's you know, it's hard not to see it as a reflection on you.

Chris Herren7:23

So.

Chris Herren8:16

And you know something, like the chase was for me it was horrendous, right? It was in five or six foreign countries, it was all over the world. Um but I'd say probably five, six, seven years into my addiction, I went to bed every night and I looked at my wife and I said, you shouldn't be with me.

Chris Herren8:35

You deserve way more. You deserve a better life, you deserve deserve a better family, a better husband. And um I went to bed like that every night,

Chris Herren8:43

You know? So as hard as it was waking up every day trying to hustle to get high, it was harder to go to bed at night and look at that woman who's who has saved your life and is raising your children and say, I don't belong with you.

Chris Herren8:58

So.

Chris Herren9:05

You know, I grew up in a in as we said in the opening, right? It was kind of a drinking town, right? Four of us in bar, you know, it's it's there's a lot of bar rooms, you kind of grow up in that right of passage where you can be 17, 18 years old sitting in the bar. You know, drinking was really never an issue for me. I was playing so much basketball at that time, but you know, I had a surgery when I was in eighth grade.

I had a little scope on my knee, and and I remember walking around my house without my crutches, you know, and and and just feeling really, really good.

Chris Herren9:36

Opioids, yeah. You know, and I was 13, 14 years old at the time. So, you know, a huge red flag, you know, that went unaddressed, missed, rightfully so. My parents weren't looking for that. You know, if if I was if my son was walking around like that today, I'd say, "Uh-uh, you know, like

Chris Herren9:54

He responds and reacts to that drug, you know, the wrong way."

Chris Herren9:58

Um so, I always knew painkillers was something that, you know, it was in my wheelhouse. But, it wasn't until I got introduced to OxyContin in '99. I I had a guy who introduced me to the painkiller who said, "It's like it's awesome, you know, it's one pill, not 20."

Chris Herren10:17

Um

Chris Herren10:20

Home. I was home. I was in Fall River. I was in that area. Um

Chris Herren10:26

Playing for Denver.

Chris Herren10:28

Yeah, yeah. So, so OxyContin kind of entered my world right around the Denver Nuggets.

Chris Herren10:33

But, again, I was, you know, 2,000 mi away from Fall River. So, I got away from it a little bit.

Chris Herren10:38

Um but when I got traded and went back, you know, I was in I was in the hub of it, you know. I I I I couldn't get away from it. And it's it's it's crazy. It's It's hard to say, but you know, spending $20,000 a month, you know, taking 1,800 mg, 1,600 mg of OxyContin a day, chewing 1080s in the morning and

Chris Herren11:03

And 1080s at night. It was It was hard, you know. It was It was torture.

Chris Herren11:07

Um you know, I was a young kid who was supposed to have like this this dream, you know, living my dream. Like not many people from Massachusetts play for the Celtics.

Chris Herren11:20

And um I was in the height of my OxyContin addiction during that time. I mean, that was the hardest um stage that I went through when I was when I was a Celtic.

Chris Herren13:37

No.

Chris Herren13:44

You know, at BC I probably lasted 4 months, right? I got introduced to cocaine early. Um, failed a few drug tests and BC, you know, they were ready to move on. Um, you know, that's kind of the way

Chris Herren13:59

Yeah. And and I loved it. I mean, I'm going to be honest with you. I

Chris Herren14:02

It yeah, it was my um, and and it this doesn't, you know, ring true for everyone, but cocaine was my truth serum.

Chris Herren14:13

It allowed me to be open and honest about how I really felt

Chris Herren14:17

At 5:00 in the morning.

Chris Herren14:20

Yes, I do.

Yeah, and I I I kind of fell in love with that feeling, you know, like, "Wow, I'm never vulnerable.

Chris Herren14:26

I've never talked about stuff like this and now here I am, 3:30 in the morning, smoking cigarettes and drinking beers and doing lines. I'm going to tell you my life story.

Chris Herren14:35

Um, and and so that was as as rough as that drug was for me, it it served a purpose for me at that time, sadly. I got kicked out of BC and it was time to move on and and Jerry Tarkanian at Fresno was like, "Hey, you know, you're worth a second chance."

Chris Herren14:51

You know, I packed and I moved 3,000 mi away with the hopes that I'm going to be 3,000 mi away from cocaine.

Chris Herren14:58

You know, nobody really sat down with me and said, "Hey Chris, you know, like, you're going to bump into it out there."

Chris Herren15:05

Yeah, they have coke in Fresno. So, um, you know, I I I really struggled in those years with cocaine at that age.

Chris Herren15:26

Yeah, yeah.

Chris Herren15:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Herren15:45

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, that that flag was raised early for me. I seemed to be one of the last ones left standing in the room. You know, I wasn't so enjoyable to be around at 5:00, 6:00, 7:00 in the morning because there was no off switch. You know, once I started, I didn't want to stop.

Chris Herren16:01

Um so so I showed pretty severe signs of addiction at a very early age, but just always went unaddressed.

Chris Herren16:11

You know, I I said the other day you I I almost I I look back at my basketball career and and I I played part of it was like the charade. You know, like I the better I played, the more ammo I had to say to you, "I'm not that bad."

Chris Herren16:30

Do you know what I'm saying?

Chris Herren16:31

Like it's just like, "How can he be that bad? You know, how can he be walking into the arena with no sleep?"

Chris Herren16:38

You know, and playing on national TV.

Chris Herren16:41

So I played out of fear, you know, a fear of being exposed, fear of getting caught, you know, and and that kind of was my rebuttal to anybody.

Chris Herren16:49

You know, how he can't be that bad, he's playing great on national TV.

Chris Herren16:59

Yeah, yeah, we were all misfits. We were all incredibly talented. I don't know the numbers, um but you know, I think we had six, seven pros on the roster.

Chris Herren17:10

Um I don't think we ever made We never made the NCAA tournament, you know, but we were loaded with talent, loaded with talent. Um it's just hard to mix those characters, you know? If it pays off, it's a it's a huge it's a huge gain. Um it didn't really pay off at the end of the day for Coach Tarkanian for Fresno State because we just never were able to put it together for a full season.

Chris Herren17:35

I played out there for three, sat out one, which was great for me. Yeah. And then played three in a row.

Chris Herren17:49

I had zero thoughts about going to the NBA until I went to Fresno.

Chris Herren17:54

Um you know, I I hooked up with a coach who was sober on Fresno State.

Chris Herren18:03

Yeah, oh, totally. But he he made me, you know, like you talk about discipline and work, like he had it. And he went on had an amazing career after Fresno State. Um coaching in the NBA. Long story short, he was the first person to take me to a meeting. Um it was a trailer on the outskirts of Fresno and I walked into an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting and I sat there with my coach. Um but he built me that year into something special, you know, and and if you if you kind of look at my career and the pictures throughout my career, that sophomore year, like I was an athlete.

Like I was in phenomenal shape. I was out working everybody. I was in the gym constantly. I was healthy, but after that season, I kind of lost my grip on it a little bit. But that gave me the opening emotionally and mentally to say like, "I think I I might be able to play in in the NBA one day, you know?"

Chris Herren19:06

So

Chris Herren19:11

Dealing with agents the whole time.

Chris Herren19:13

Yeah, yeah.

Chris Herren19:15

No, no, but they're called intermediaries.

Yeah, yeah, they're around. They're the agents are everywhere.

Chris Herren19:28

You know, we'll give you five grand a week, you know, until the draft, you know, whatever it is.

Chris Herren19:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're going down. Yeah.

Chris Herren19:42

Yeah, yeah. Five grand a month for me though. I mean, if I was making 50, I would have been dead, you know.

Chris Herren19:49

So yeah, we had all kinds of agents around, you know, we

Chris Herren19:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, great ones and I settled with a local one, Frank Catapano of Boston.

Chris Herren19:59

Paid me a dime.

Chris Herren20:01

Yeah. So, you know, I I finished my last game at Fresno, which I believe was the NIT tournament in Madison Square Garden and and I never went back. I went I went back home after that tournament and got ready for the draft. And uh just kind of locked myself in the gym.

Chris Herren20:17

That's

Chris Herren20:23

Gosh, I was So, I was meeting my trainer at the beach every day, running like five and a half miles with dumbbells, twos, fives, tens, just passing them back and forth. Uh doing sprints, going to lift, then to the gym to do a do a workout and interview.

Chris Herren20:42

No, no, I was never really sober, but like I was able to put time together.

Chris Herren20:46

You know what I mean?

Chris Herren20:53

Yeah, no, no, I didn't do I never did cocaine alone.

Chris Herren20:55

Yeah, yeah.

Chris Herren21:01

Yeah.

Chris Herren21:07

Yeah, absolutely. No worry. I I never did coke alone. Um they kind of went together. In hindsight, I was pretty focused getting ready for the draft. I got in good shape. My son I had a baby. My wife and I, you know, we were living together at our home in Fall River and just, you know, hopefully to hear my name called.

Chris Herren21:25

You know, I never believed it would get called um until you know, I got a phone call that night. There was a draft party in Fall River, which was you know, it was wild.

Chris Herren21:36

And I wouldn't go because I was afraid of failure. I was afraid to embarrass myself. I was afraid that I would sit in that party for 3 hours and not hear my name called. So my wife and I stayed home together with our son and um the phone rang. You know, Dan Issel, Denver Nuggets. Welcome.

Chris Herren21:55

33.

Chris Herren21:56

Yeah, 33.

Chris Herren22:00

He was excited. So, you know, I did the pre-draft routine. You know, you travel around and you work out with teams. Like I was with the Heat, I was with the Vancouver Grizzlies, I was with the Nuggets. You get close. You spend some quality time. You know, Dan Issel, I I was working out with the Nuggets and he threw me in his car and just gave me a real long talk about the history of alcoholism in his family um and knowing that I had struggled.

Chris Herren22:25

Everybody knew. You know, I mean it was it was it was big news, right? So I went to treatment when I was 21. I left mid-season. So my junior year I left mid-season to go to treatment.

Chris Herren22:36

Um you know, 60 Minutes was in town. They did a big, you know, feature on our program. My first experience with documentary was the Michael Jordan crew that did his baseball documentary.

Chris Herren22:49

They wrapped up filming with him and came to Fresno. So we had we had cameras 24/7. Um so yeah, it was we had our own reality show one night a week on Fox. So it was it was it was intense.

Chris Herren23:11

Yeah, yeah, big time.

Chris Herren23:13

So, I just remember getting a call from the president of the university and athletic director and saying, "You're going to get asked by 60 Minutes to sit down and do an interview. And you're not going to do it." And um Mike Wallace came into town and I said, "I don't care. Like, I can't miss out on this. You know, this man has interviewed presidents. You know, I took a chance.

Chris Herren23:36

And I sat across from him and we we went back and forth. But um yeah, he he undersold, you know, what he was going to do in that piece. And, you know, we crossed paths with him at Madison Square Garden a couple of months later. He showed up as a friend of the program. And Tark wasn't having it.

Chris Herren23:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Herren23:59

It's never good. I mean, I love 60 Minutes. But anytime 60 Minutes is interested doing a piece on you, run.

Chris Herren24:06

Typically.

Chris Herren24:25

Second.

Chris Herren24:30

Course.

Chris Herren24:31

Once I heard my name called, we jumped in the car and then we went to go celebrate. Um

Chris Herren24:37

You just get ready. You get ready for training camp. You know, so

Chris Herren24:40

I kind of lock in and and, you know, thousands of shots a week and m- miles on miles and and and just getting ready for that initial training camp. Um

Chris Herren24:54

Yeah, James Posey was the first

Chris Herren24:56

Yeah, James Posey was their first round pick. I think he was like number 16. And I was 33.

But you have to prepare. So, you go through this process of maybe getting drafted to getting drafted. And then the team you get drafted, you play summer league.

Chris Herren25:10

So, next thing you know, like you're in Salt Lake City, Utah with 15 guys you never played with. Some who've been in the NBA for 5-6 years. And playing at a very high level. So, you're prepping for that.

Chris Herren25:58

Yeah, super high level. I mean, listen, I I have the right to say I got there. Um I didn't have the right to stay there. I wasn't ready or prepared for that level of of intensity and commitment. Um you know, that first few months in Denver was phenomenal. I had unbelievable teammates. I had a guy by the name of Antonio McDyess. Number 24. And I'm dribbling down and I throw a lob and I'm like, that's leaving the building. And you know, he caught it and and and punched it.

So, you know, it was there I had my moments. I mean, when I first got in, I remember my coach begging me to shoot and me being afraid to shoot. You know, like it's my first shot. And he's like, just pull it. So, I never felt honestly in in those years that I belonged. Obviously because you know, OxyContin ended my world shortly after that.

Chris Herren26:54

Yeah, yes. A little bit, you know, just I it just started and I think that's the hardest thing like in in my basketball career like I don't even like seeing me in uniforms in the NBA, you know, especially the Celtics, especially the Celtics. You know, what should have been my greatest accomplishment, you know, was one of my biggest failures, but it was a really, really tough time in my life because life was supposed to be good.

Chris Herren27:23

You know, and life was hell.

Chris Herren27:25

You know.

Chris Herren27:27

Yeah.

Chris Herren27:35

Yeah, you know, I I I as crazy as this sounds and I don't know why I can't tell you a game like oh, I against Dallas I had 22 points. Like I don't even know. You know, like that's it's a fog to me, you know, I'm I'm I mean listen, I was a backup point guard. So, I was coming in for 8 to 10 minutes and giving the giving Nick Van Exel a break, you know, so not a ton of opportunity, you know, um but like I don't have I think one moment where I knew I was in trouble, I was playing against the Lakers and you know, Kobe's to my left and Shaq is waiting in the paint and I remember thinking I can get there.

And like I felt like I was under trees, you know, like I saw no opening where I used to be able to see openings, there were none and I was like maybe I'm not ready for this.

Chris Herren28:35

No idea.

Chris Herren28:36

Yeah, no idea. Couldn't even tell you who I played against in my first NBA game.

Chris Herren28:57

Yeah.

Chris Herren29:01

And I had nobody around me that was like, you know, I don't recall anybody sitting down with me saying like, "Hey, soak this up."

Chris Herren29:08

You know, take a deep breath. When he looks down and calls your name, I want you to take a deep breath.

Chris Herren29:13

And I want you to walk to the scorer's table and know that you're checking into the NBA.

Chris Herren29:18

So, I can't even remember who I played against my first basketball game.

Chris Herren29:22

I could look it up, but I have no idea. And you know something, listen, I've been sober, I've been in recovery for 17 and 1/2 years and um you know, part of the process of being in recovery is kind of sifting through, you know, that trauma that you've gone through. And I'm not cured

Chris Herren29:42

From basketball.

Chris Herren29:44

Like I I still carry some of that weight with me.

Chris Herren29:48

Um I'm incredibly grateful that I was obese

Chris Herren29:53

Because it's given me a chance to do what I do today, you know. So.

Chris Herren30:03

I don't know. I cried. I cried in sadness. I cried. I remember getting called to the Pepsi Center. Um and Dan Issel was in his office and he said, "Hey, listen, we got to talk." And he handed me the phone and it's Rick Pitino. And I hung up the phone and I just remember crying. Like

Chris Herren30:21

Yeah. Like I I don't I don't want to be traded. You know, I loved the guys I was playing with. I loved the men in that locker room. Like they were unbelievable people and I just went through my rookie season with them. I had my highs and lows, but like they were good good people. And um it it it crushed me, you know. I wasn't like, Celtics, yes. I was I was A, full of fear, right? Like I'm going home in the early stages of opiate addiction.

I didn't even know what an opiate was.

Chris Herren30:52

Um and you know, knowing that I'm going to be back in that space where I have not done well in my whole life.

Chris Herren31:03

So, it was it was heartbreaking actually getting traded.

Chris Herren31:13

I mean, I was just way over I was I was way over my head. Um we were playing a game called Booray and you know, the pot kept doubling and it got to the point where it was 20, 30,000 dollars in the pot and if you don't if you don't get one book, you got to double it.

Chris Herren31:30

Um and I got I got booed, you know, I got booed and and they took care of me, you know, the the veterans did. Nick Van Exel, uh pulled me aside in the hotel room. Now, I'm making like 300,000 dollars a year and it's like

Chris Herren31:46

No, and it's like 28,000 I owe.

Chris Herren31:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he called me down to his room and he said, Chris, listen, don't probably don't gamble, but I'm going to I'm going to take care of it for you. And he probably doesn't even remember, but like it's it was one of the nicest gestures of my life, you know.

Chris Herren32:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was cool.

Chris Herren32:11

Yeah, you know, but they were just good people like Chauncey Billups, you know, obviously he's gotten into what he's gotten into, but he might be the nicest human being I've ever played basketball with, you know. Yeah, like Chauncey Billups is you can't find a better person than Chauncey Billups. You know, he Popeye Jones, I mean, the team I played on, Denver, they're all coaches somewhere, you know, like they've landed on somebody's bench as adults, as coaches, in retirement.

Um and you know, they were just really good human beings. And I loved being like their little brother at that time.

Chris Herren32:59

Yeah, they you know, they it's a train wreck. You know, I'm going back to the Celtics. I don't want to be there. Um I'm in early stages addiction with opiates.

Chris Herren33:12

Yeah, dread. Dread.

Chris Herren33:20

See, listen, I mean, it it's never enough, right? Like, me knowing I'm going home like I'm not stopping.

Chris Herren33:27

You know, like the addiction was way bigger than the Celtics uniform.

Chris Herren33:33

And I knew that I'm that battle was lost.

Chris Herren33:37

Like, oh, I got I'm going to be good now. Like, it just doesn't work that way.

Chris Herren33:41

So, my take on going to the Celtics was, I'm going to fail miserably in front of my people.

Chris Herren33:49

You know, in front of my people I will fail miserably. And I don't I'm not looking forward to that.

Chris Herren33:54

So, you know, going back to the Celtics, the Celtics was a young team. Coach Pitino was a tough coach. Um Paul Pierce was young, Antoine Walker was young. I had some great guys on that team, Walter McCarty, some really good guys, but it wasn't to me it wasn't like Denver. So, and again, you know, I'm a backup. And I don't even know how I was finding my way in minutes into games with how sick I was.

Chris Herren34:19

But I did. And um I looked forward to an ending before it even began.

Chris Herren34:27

Yeah. Yeah, I did.

Chris Herren34:32

It really wasn't, right? Like I look back on my basketball career, like I I hadn't I was so overwhelmed and consumed with what's next, how am I going to figure out tomorrow.

Chris Herren34:45

Like I could care less about a team I was playing. Like I needed to know where the hotel is.

Chris Herren34:51

I needed to know where we were staying so I can make sure I'm shipping them there.

Chris Herren34:56

You know, like that was my like I wasn't thinking about, oh, I'm going to play Gary Payton tonight. I'm thinking of like, okay, the Ritz-Carlton Are we staying at the Ritz-Carlton in Seattle? Are we staying at the Four Seasons? Uh and putting packages together. So I just never It was just complete madness.

Chris Herren35:13

You know, I was always concerned about it. I I just never wanted to get caught traveling with it for some reason, you know?

Chris Herren35:23

Yeah, and the other thing was I always ran out.

Chris Herren35:28

You know what I mean?

Chris Herren35:35

Run out. So So to have some there um as a little security blanket, you know, that was that was pivotal for me. Um but I just remember like, you know, and it's so sad, man. Like I I it's it's hard to say. I remember playing We were playing the Mavericks and I spent all day tracking this package, all day.

Chris Herren36:01

I was walking the streets of downtown Dallas looking for the FedEx driver. You know? I know what you mean.

Chris Herren36:08

Yeah. So So playing in the game didn't even It was nowhere near my radar, you know? That that was my concern. So my NBA experience there's not much to it, you know? I mean, I made it, I competed. Um I was good enough to make it, but listen, as you know, year one and two of an opiate addiction where you're taking 1,000 mg a day, come on, man.

Chris Herren36:39

You know, like my biggest concern that season was I remember going to the ATM and here I am, this young dad, young husband, playing for the Celtics. And I remember like withdrawing money and it was like 270,000. I remember that. But I remember when there was none in it. I remember when I went to that ATM a year and a half later and took out the last dime. And just knowing that like I just ran through a quarter of a million dollars on my family, on pills.

So, on top of that, nobody really knew. So, I was I was I was in the shadows at that time. I was still hiding it tremendously. Um but, you know, there was a time when I went over to Europe and um I was kind of like a prisoner in my own home and I would uh I wouldn't leave my house until the mailman came.

Chris Herren37:40

Because that mailman was bringing something from Paine Webber. And I my wife can't see that. My wife can't see that that account has nothing in it. So, I wouldn't leave until he came. And once he came, and it was once a month, I never knew what day, but I'd rip it up and throw it away. And um I went to go play in uh Turkey and my wife didn't come. She's like, "No, I'm going to stay behind. You know, we did Italy."

Chris Herren38:09

Oh. You I knew it was coming.

Chris Herren38:13

When I answered the phone, she was crying. And my mom was in the background, her mom was in the background. And the gig was up, you know? So, I'm 5,000 miles away and my wife is finding out that I had spent all our money. And we are in debt. I owe money, and she thinks she's home like holding the fort down.

Chris Herren38:36

You know, for her professional basketball player. But, not the case.

Chris Herren39:14

Yeah, I mean, you know, people um ask me if I played high. And I'm like, I didn't play if I wasn't. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's that world. When I tell like people that I waited outside the arena in my basketball warm-ups, while my team is in the arena warming up, and I'm outside meeting my guy, um to me, that's just normal.

Chris Herren39:42

Like, why wouldn't I? To others, it's like madness. Um, but the world I was living in, it was like it was completely normal. I I showed up to the arena that day, and Rick Pitino was like, "Hey, you're going to get big minutes tonight." And I was starting early withdrawal stages. And I'm like, there's no way I can be out on that court competing 94 ft in withdrawal. So, you know, I made the call, and he hustled, and he tried. The closest he could get was outside the arena in the the parking lot, and I told him, "Stay down there, I'm coming.

And I just ran out. I left warm-ups, I left the court. It's a back stairway. I went into the parking lot. I grabbed, you know, my 800 mg and chewed them and went back in.

Chris Herren40:43

No, of course I went through that phase eventually. You know, like when when you have nothing, that stuff matters to them. Um So, yeah, no, I went through that phase, you know, where I'm pawning jewelry and giving away uniforms because, you know, you want that person to love you.

Chris Herren41:00

You want that person to be a best friend, your number one.

Sadly, I had a few, without saying their names, that would try to help me.

Chris Herren41:12

You know, like, Chris, I don't even enjoy selling drugs to you. You know, like, this hurts me.

Chris Herren41:17

And you have a major problem. Most of the people I dealt with, especially locally to Fall River,

Chris Herren41:24

They didn't see like a whale.

Chris Herren41:27

They saw a skeleton, you know.

Chris Herren41:46

I could care less.

Chris Herren41:48

I could care less. And And listen, like, because in my mind, I'm like, my wife is about to find out

Chris Herren41:57

Is a complete disaster.

Chris Herren41:59

I'm going to lose my son. She's going to leave. Like, so, my whole world was that. You know, like, I said, like, I I was a professional basketball player only in uniform and only in the the 2 hours we had practice.

Chris Herren42:12

You know, the other 22 hours of the day like I was like I was I was moving pieces on the board to try to stay ahead of it. Um, so Yeah, I don't I never looked at it as, you know, like the NBA sucks. Yeah, I I unfortunately I never had that moment, you know. You know.

Chris Herren42:38

So after the first year with the Celtics I got cut the second year. Um I flew down to Dallas. I played with the Mavericks in summer league. Okay. That was a complete disaster. And then while I was playing in summer league and playing well in the first four or five games of summer league, you know, the European teams were there. So as soon as they saw me kind of hit that wire

Chris Herren43:02

They were like bring them, you know, so I got the offer from from Bologna, Italy from from a team Skipper Fortitudo and they didn't get who they thought they were getting, you know.

Chris Herren43:22

Oh, I'm in beautiful beautiful places.

Chris Herren43:29

Listen, I know nothing about Bologna, Italy because I was literally wouldn't leave. I went away. I was playing in Bologna, playing with the best players in the world. Like Europeans that were drafted, big time basketball players. We had training camp and I was in like day three and I was already out. And I went to practice and I was a shell of myself. Um I got three more days of this training camp in the mountains and I have nothing to carry me.

Chris Herren44:02

Oh, I did and I said I'm I'm I'm going home. Yeah, so here I am.

Chris Herren44:09

Incredible team, incredible program, an incredible club making more money than I ever made in the NBA playing for this team. And on day three of a training camp up in the mountains, I was like, I quit, you know, send me back. I'm not going to do this for the next three days in withdrawal. Um

Chris Herren44:27

So, I walked away from all that money. I mean, and again, it happened to me in the NBA Summer League. I was playing for the Mavericks. I was playing well. And um I ran out. And once I ran out, it was I'm injured, my knees hurt, I can't play anymore.

Chris Herren44:46

Yeah, I was I was

Chris Herren44:49

In Italy I did, the first time.

Chris Herren44:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Herren44:54

So, there was just a little like a little town center, and there were these guys that

Chris Herren45:01

Yeah, yeah.

Chris Herren45:06

Just because I was such a disaster, you know, like I I was so damaged. I was so vulnerable.

Chris Herren45:17

That like it just wasn't going to work.

Chris Herren45:20

You know, listen, this is high-level basketball, you know, and I'm trying to hustle heroin on street corners.

Do you know what I mean? Like

Chris Herren45:29

And yeah, and not to mention like European basketball, like they're like football, they're soccer fans. Like they love their club.

Chris Herren45:38

And like they would see me walking down the wrong street at the wrong time shaking the wrong guy's hand, and it's over, you know, so

Chris Herren45:47

I ran, I got out of there. Um

Chris Herren45:59

Yeah.

Chris Herren46:01

For pills. I went looking for pills. You know, a couple of people told me where to go and who to look for.

Chris Herren46:08

Like people on the streets in Bologna.

Chris Herren46:11

Yeah, hey, where can I get high? You know, and and I probably I probably started the process like I'm looking for weed.

Chris Herren46:19

You know what I mean? Just let me open the door. Let me peek in what's behind.

Chris Herren46:23

And he said, "I got some heroin. You know, we don't we don't sell pills."

Chris Herren46:29

And it was a drug that I really thought I would never do.

Yeah, oh yeah. Broken. You know, like Listen, drug addiction, you know, that world is universal.

Chris Herren46:39

You can you don't have to speak English to get high.

Chris Herren46:44

Jackpot and like devastated at the same time.

Chris Herren46:48

Cuz I was still hiding behind the fact that I never did heroin. Like I'm better.

Chris Herren46:53

You know, like I don't mess with that drug. You know.

Chris Herren47:05

Mhm. Shot that with him in the car. Um you know, in Europe it was black tar.

Chris Herren47:11

Um so I I most of until I left there I would smoke it.

Chris Herren47:17

I was exposed to and you know, IV in Italy.

Chris Herren47:22

Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Herren47:25

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Not the first 3 days in Italy. Just just I was probably I think I went there pretty prepared. I think I had probably 300 350 80s.

Chris Herren47:36

And holy [ __ ]

Put the whole program together. Like this is I'm going to taper.

Chris Herren47:43

Yeah, yeah. Um So once I ran out, I just remember like for me it was sneezing. Um dry heaving.

Chris Herren47:53

You know, runny nose.

Chris Herren47:55

I'm like I'm not doing this. You know, I'm not going to go through this in this country.

Chris Herren47:59

And you know, I was introduced to it black it was tar out there. Um but again, I lasted a month and a half.

If that.

Chris Herren48:11

No, no, I probably lasted about 3 weeks went to training camp came home and got the hell out of there.

Chris Herren48:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Herren48:23

No. No, no, not even close.

Chris Herren48:26

Not shooting it. Yeah, yeah, not shooting it. I mean, I had snorted oxy's smoked um you know, shooting's a little different. You know, it's it's it's instant in a sense.

Chris Herren48:38

You know, where I live in Massachusetts, I mean, in that area Fall River um I knew heroin addicts, you know, I knew

Chris Herren48:46

I could find it.

Chris Herren48:47

You know, I was not I wasn't going to wake up and go without.

Chris Herren48:52

Yeah, so when I went home it all ends up equal in

Not the same. It starts off cheap.

Chris Herren48:57

You know what I mean? And then you know, the next thing you know, you're doing a brick and you're spending 350 bucks in a morning, you know, shooting dope. So, it kind of it's definitely cheaper, but it definitely you know, it it adds up like everything else.

Chris Herren49:19

Yeah, yeah. So, then I hung out. I tried to get ready. I got a call from a team in Turkey in Istanbul and I was like, I'll take it, you know, and I went and I went every time I went, I went with the intentions on doing good. You know what I mean? Like that was my

Chris Herren49:35

Yeah, yeah, and I'll get through it and I'll just leave it. Um but it just it never never went that way, you know.

Chris Herren49:46

Yes, multiple times.

Chris Herren49:51

No, no, I had gone through it. You know, I you'd wake up and the mattress would be this way, you know, your legs kicking. Just pain. And it's tough it's tough to submit to that moment.

Chris Herren50:04

Of let me just go through it.

Chris Herren50:08

Yeah, yeah.

Chris Herren50:17

Yeah.

Chris Herren50:20

It's like

Chris Herren50:56

Yeah.

Chris Herren51:00

The answer is definitely yes. You're wired to do that, you know, like I was I had what it took to get where I wanted to go. I just could not stay. And you know, I don't talk like when I think of basketball, I think of Durfee.

Chris Herren51:19

I think of Fresno.

Chris Herren51:21

Like my career ended at Fresno.

Chris Herren51:31

Yeah.

Chris Herren51:36

Yeah, yeah.

Chris Herren51:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Herren51:44

Yeah, it didn't. It didn't, you know, I wish it did. Um again, and I say this and people might not believe it, but like I don't know who I made my first shot against. I don't know what game I got my first bucket. I don't know the first team I ran out. Was it a home game? Was it a away game? I have zero recollection of that stuff. Again, and I just never had the desire to kind of look.

Chris Herren52:11

Like, oh, this was your first game.

Chris Herren52:13

Just never had it. Um My career in a sense kind of ended in college.

Chris Herren52:24

No. No, I mean, I had some decent games. I think I had a game against the Mavericks. I think I had like 18 points. So, I had some good moments with the Celtics. I was starting on the Celtics. So, so

Chris Herren52:37

I went through a period where I was the starting point guard for the Celtics, you know? Um and couldn't get any sicker. If you look at I can't look at a picture of me in a Celtics uniform.

Chris Herren52:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Herren52:52

You know, those were one of my moments, right? But the only thing I was thinking is is, okay, I either got to get to Four Over Tonight or I got to figure out a way to get down there in the morning. You know, like that was my first thought.

Chris Herren53:05

There was no like, sit in this moment and enjoy it. Like I would love to sit down with me. Like I wish I had that opportunity to sit down with me at 21 years old. If I could sit down with me and just put my arm around them and hug them.

Chris Herren53:19

You know, and and let them know like what's coming and and and and to just breathe it, enjoy it, you know, cherish it.

Yeah.

I can't say I did at all, you know.

Chris Herren53:49

I didn't see anything. I I just didn't There was no There were no um There was no tourism.

Because you got to understand too, and I think you you do um I was a fraud.

Chris Herren54:04

I wasn't giving them what they thought.

Chris Herren54:08

You know, like yeah, they could Google me watch me play against the Dallas Mavericks or the Los Angeles Lakers, but that's not the guy that's coming. You know what I mean? Like I'm beyond that. You know, now I'm now I'm 2 years, 3 years, 4 years into major major opiate addiction.

Chris Herren54:26

So to me it was like and I hate saying this, but it was like let me get as much money as I can before they realize I'm not worth it and send me home.

Chris Herren54:37

That's pretty much what it became.

Chris Herren54:40

Turkey was great. I love Turkey. Um you know, I was playing for a club called Galatasaray. Unbelievable rich tradition. Um There's a couple of teams in in Turkey that have been playing against each other for hundreds of years, and that's Fenerbahçe and Galatasaray. I know Beşiktaş is in that as well, but played in some big games, some big moments, some really cool crowds. But heroin, you know, I mean I was battling heroin. I

Chris Herren55:07

Staying at a hotel, and my dad came out. And um I just had the the instinct that the bell guy you know, could put me on.

Chris Herren55:18

And he did. And um

Chris Herren55:23

Yeah. Yeah, I I probably went soft entry.

Chris Herren55:27

Weed or maybe some coke, but then like okay, let's let's kind of just open it all up.

Chris Herren55:33

But yeah, he

Chris Herren55:36

Oh, he knew. He knew I was on the I mean, I was in the hotel with guys I was playing with on the I would assume at some point they all ended up knowing. You know, eventually. I mean, as soon as I got on the plane and left Turkey, the guy was probably like, "Dude, thank god you got rid of him."

You know what I mean? Um but yeah, you know, it's it's it it my life was consumed by the next.

Chris Herren56:02

And you know, running in the streets of Istanbul, trying to figure it out, you know, making sure that I have enough to go on the road with. It was a full-time job. Um The foreign countries for me, whether it's Turkey, China, Italy, Poland, Iran, um it was just I was there for one reason.

Chris Herren56:28

China. I was in China.

Chris Herren56:32

And I loved China. I loved China, but you know, like

Chris Herren56:37

Yeah, you know, I did. I I got sober for a little bit and

Chris Herren56:43

Yeah, I I got sober because I was forced to. You know, and I struck out on the streets. So, I just said, "You know what? Like I got to ride this." And I and and I don't even know if I put this in the book, but I was probably like a month sober, um and I went to a nightclub and I had a couple of beers. And I don't drink. If I drink, I want Coke.

Chris Herren57:07

So, that's what I was after. And um this this guy said, "I got you. I'll be back." I'm calling made a couple of phone calls and he walked up to me sitting at the table in this club, handed it to me under the table. I went to the bathroom, I did it.

Chris Herren57:28

Yeah, I my

Chris Herren57:36

Yeah, yeah, I was done. I was going to get way more time than Brittney Griner got. I mean, it was um But But again, what happened to me was is I um

Chris Herren57:49

Yeah. I asked him for coke, and he handed me a little knot.

Chris Herren57:53

And I immediately ran to the bathroom like, "I can't wait for this." And I did it, and I didn't get what I was prepared to get.

Chris Herren58:02

And I immediately realized like, he sold me heroin.

Chris Herren58:10

Yeah, I don't know. I think

Chris Herren58:13

I think

Chris Herren58:28

I think this guy was like, um "I'm going to make money any way I can. So, this is what I got. I'm going to charge you 150 bucks for it, and this is what I'm selling you."

Chris Herren58:44

Mhm. But I did it in the bathroom.

Chris Herren58:49

Oh, yeah. It was It was an incredible moment.

Chris Herren58:56

Yeah, yeah. All of a sudden, I had legs. You know what I mean?

Chris Herren58:59

All of a sudden, I had a little a beat to my step, but I accidentally bumped into heroin in China. Um And like, who knows in hindsight if I never met that man in that nightclub where I would have ended up that year. Yeah. But I had some incredible games in China. Like, I scored 66 or 68 in China. You know.

Chris Herren59:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's

Chris Herren59:22

And that's the funny thing because people would say, "Oh, you're playing in China." China is high high level basketball.

Course. know, like these kids are groomed from a young age to be little killers. So like the kids I played with the local whether they're Chinese national team members or just growing up like they would they would they would train the assassins. Like they were pulled out of their house at like 11 12 like a gymnast. You know, and like they lived in that arena with a with a dorm parent from the age of 11 to until they made it. You had those young guys I played with in their early 20s who had been a pro for 10 years already.

It was highly competitive and if

Chris Herren1:00:26

And I think And the Nigerian drug dealer. Yeah, and I think they they they knew um All you really had to do was spend the night with me and then you watched everything unravel. You know, like I just I never kept it together. Yeah. You know, so I just horrified my Chinese teammates.

Chris Herren1:00:43

No, it was it was phenomenal. I mean, I had a I had a great couple of years in China. China's season is shortened. You know, it was like five months. Yeah. So I just had to hold it together for that time and I did both years. I lasted the whole season. Um But I had some big nights and I look back and I I couldn't couldn't have been sicker.

I could not have been sicker in the lifestyle that I was living than when I was in China.

Chris Herren1:01:19

Yeah, I and again it's It's for me to say this because um it just shows you the insanity and how sick it is. Like he was a nice guy.

Chris Herren1:01:33

No. He was just getting it for me. But like you know, I have pictures with him, you know, with my kids.

Chris Herren1:01:40

Like Tiananmen Square, you know, like it was it's sad, you know, and and but again, like they become part of you.

Chris Herren1:01:50

Right? Like who's more valuable to you than your drug dealer?

Chris Herren1:01:54

Like if I make this fool fall in love with me and he's going to answer every time I call and I can knock at 2:00 in the morning and he'll be up at 5:00 for me.

Chris Herren1:02:03

You know, like I'll take it there.

Chris Herren1:02:08

Yeah, so I I I ran out of dodge. I got out of there. I was I was in debt. I owed people money.

Chris Herren1:02:14

Yeah.

Chris Herren1:02:15

You know, and thankfully I was able to get out of that country. Um but as I was saying earlier, like when I think of basketball for some reason I was able to keep it together at some level in China. Like I was a pro.

Chris Herren1:02:31

You know, like I I had pro numbers.

Chris Herren1:02:34

You know, like people were fans.

Chris Herren1:02:37

Okay. It wasn't a horrible experience.

Chris Herren1:02:41

All the other countries were just horrendous.

Chris Herren1:02:48

You know, I don't know what I was thinking. I You know, um I'm at the tail end of my heroin addiction.

Yeah. Um

You know, Iran I think offered me probably like 25, 30,000 a month.

Chris Herren1:03:07

Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Herren1:03:09

No idea. 2005, probably. I'd say.

Chris Herren1:03:13

Ahmadinejad was the was

Chris Herren1:03:19

Oh, hell no. They wouldn't even play American music couldn't be played in the arena. That's when things started to get a little dicey. I was there when like American music was banned. So, like they couldn't play any rap music in warm-ups. And and in Iran only men can sit in the arena and watch you.

Chris Herren1:03:39

So, like you come out of the tunnel to play and you look up and it's just all men.

Chris Herren1:03:44

Smoking.

Chris Herren1:03:47

Yeah, yeah. All men. Um But again, I didn't last long, right? I was probably there a month and a half, you know, like I went through the whole you know, the whole skit like got there prepared plenty of opiates.

Yeah.

Run out.

Chris Herren1:04:05

Always nervous. Always nervous.

Chris Herren1:04:09

You know, there were times I did and there were times I didn't. There were times I panicked and went to the bathroom uh before security and dumped and then there were times Yeah, and there were times Yeah, and there were times I was like, "I'm going to roll the dice." You know, I think my Iran I I don't even know how many games I played.

Chris Herren1:04:27

So, it was my cab driver, right? Like I I was not afraid to to ask. My teammate, he's a college basketball coach now.

Chris Herren1:04:36

And I won't say his name, but he can he can back this up.

Chris Herren1:04:39

I somehow made arrangements to get liquor cocaine and some heroin and hash. And uh anytime I talked to him he just had like this overwhelming look of fear. Like I can't believe I'm doing this for you, but

Chris Herren1:04:57

The taxi driver. It got to the point where he would only deliver it between like 1:00 and 4:00 in the morning. So, he would call, I'm outside, I go to my window, second floor, he'd throw it up, I'd catch it, and I'd go right back in. Um

Chris Herren1:05:22

See I I didn't understand real poverty until I went to those countries. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like I think he looked at the situation and he had you know he was going to make money on me.

Chris Herren1:05:34

But I had no idea how he was living his life and it obviously he was that you know compromised in his life to risk his life to to throw it up 20 ft.

Chris Herren1:05:46

Um so Yeah Iran was a challenge. I didn't last long. Um

Chris Herren1:05:54

Yeah yeah.

Chris Herren1:05:55

And Iran Iran was beautiful like the people were awesome.

Chris Herren1:06:00

You know what I mean? Like I had such a good time like the time I was there I got close with the local shop owners and and restaurants. Like I love the Iranian people and you know you walk around their town and in Tehran and you know the women you know they have over their head and they they their jackets have to be right below their knee. So nothing could show. But then like you'd get invited to dinner at their house and like you know everybody's just normal you know?

So I loved the people of Iran when I was I never felt threatened. I never felt unsafe. Um if anything I was the one.

Chris Herren1:06:40

Unsafe. Yeah yeah yeah.

Chris Herren1:06:46

It was either Iran or Poland. But yeah yeah that's the final stop.

Chris Herren1:06:54

You know listen IV heroin right? Like it's it's um it's ugly right? Like you know like sticking needles in your arms like you know that doesn't look good in uniforms.

Chris Herren1:07:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No doubt. You know, but but also like I'm 27, I'm breaking down. I'm torturing my family, you know, like every time I left, there was this little glimpse of hope. Like he's going to go and he's going to provide for his family.

Chris Herren1:07:25

And we're going to be okay again. And it never happened.

Chris Herren1:07:29

And then finally I was like, you know something, like I am who I am. So I'm just going to go to the street. And we got nothing left. It's all gone. There's no money. There's nothing of any value. Um and I just I became like a street junkie.

Chris Herren1:07:49

She is. She was She was working at a hotel. I mean, my I flipped her world upside down. My wife is smart. She was like thinking about going to law school. She was a poli-sci major at Providence College. She was whatever the [ __ ] laude thing is.

Chris Herren1:08:06

Yeah, the highest level. Um just beautiful, brilliant woman. And uh you know, she was in a tailspin for 8 years after with me. Um so I remember my wife getting a job working at the front desk of a Hampton Inn.

Chris Herren1:08:26

My wife went back to school. When I got sober, she went back to school. She got her master's in in in uh social work. And um she's a beast. She's She's a beast, but I my wife wasn't working much back then.

Chris Herren1:08:41

You know, she We got two kids, young. Um I'm leaving the And again, it's always with like the we're going to be okay. You know, it's like the worst words in language. Like we're going to be okay.

Chris Herren1:08:56

Do you know what I mean? Like it's going to be okay.

Chris Herren1:08:58

You know.

Chris Herren1:09:04

Yeah. And you know something that what what hurt more than any of it was I knew it wasn't.

Chris Herren1:09:10

And I could see the glimmer, like the shine in her eyes. Like, let's do this. Let's get back on our feet.

Chris Herren1:09:47

Yeah.

Chris Herren1:10:03

And people need to hear it. You know, yeah, exactly. You know, and that's

Chris Herren1:10:22

You know, it's That's when

Chris Herren1:10:24

And as crazy as it sounds, there was relief in my world when I lost everything

Chris Herren1:10:32

You know, like it was like I Yeah, this is where I am. This is who I am. This is where I am. There's nothing to hide. I am who I am. And there was relief in that. You know, the the gig was up. Um Yeah, listen, I you know, multiple overdoses. My first overdose was in 2004, like you said. I was in a Dunkin Donuts parking lot and just went out. And you know, in 2004, like you know, overdoses became, you know, the headline for about a decade, you know, in the last 10, 15 years.

But when I did it, it wasn't.

Chris Herren1:11:03

And um, you know,

Chris Herren1:11:08

Yeah, yeah. And even that, like I woke up and and and I was in a jail cell and I remember going to see an attorney and sitting with my wife in there and just saying like, "No, I'm okay. It was just a one, you know, it's no big deal. I'm going to figure this out." Um, so so in 2004 when I overdosed for the first time, um, you know, things changed drastically and then the overdoses started coming regularly, you know, like I I probably overdosed four or five times in the next four years.

Chris Herren1:11:41

No. No, Narcan was not even a thing. It was a thing right at the end of my of my use. Um, I would have, but yeah, no, Narcan wasn't a thing and and you know, I was drinking heavy. So I was not only just doing opiates, I was drinking a lot of vodka.

Chris Herren1:11:57

So my system was like completely shut down. Um, so you know, the the possibility of overdosing in that those two mixed together was were very high.

Chris Herren1:12:09

You know, in 2008, I uh I jumped in my car and and I met a guy in a side street and for it through my window and I woke up in the back of an ambulance and um, you know, I just remember going into that hospital in Fall River, you know, my my town.

Chris Herren1:12:28

You know, when I was 16, they wrote the book Fall River Dreams.

Chris Herren1:12:32

You know, like that was that was that was my book.

Chris Herren1:12:36

Like that was our team. Um, and now like I'm like a bum, you know?

Chris Herren1:12:44

I'm not. I'm getting it from people who care about me.

Chris Herren1:12:48

You know, Bill Reynolds who wrote the book Fall River Dreams, um, you know, I took advantage of his kindness.

Chris Herren1:12:57

My dad, um anywhere, you know, and but again, like you know, in my 30s I became a cheap vodka drinker.

Chris Herren1:13:07

You know, it's like dirty water, like six bucks will get me two pints.

Chris Herren1:13:12

If I got to get a third, I'll figure out six three bucks.

Chris Herren1:13:16

Um so yeah, there wasn't a lot of money being spent on my alcoholism or my drug addiction at that time.

Chris Herren1:13:25

But I just remember like wanting to kill myself, right? I mean, I'm like, this has got to end. And um you know, as I was getting ready to leave the hospital, that a nurse just was super kind to me and loving and supportive and she just saw me and she said, "I know who your mom is. I grew up watching you play and let me love you. Let me make some phone calls for you." You know, and she held on to me long enough to get the next opportunity, which is when I went to treatment.

Chris Herren1:13:59

I went to a therapeutic community called Daytop out of New York. It was uh behavioral modification, not 12 steps, not Alcoholics Anonymous. It was It was a rugged place. There were 96 of us in that in that place. All behavior-based, you know, kind of peer run to a certain extent cuz it was like an 18-month program.

Chris Herren1:14:22

Yeah, 18 months.

Chris Herren1:14:25

So, I didn't have a choice, right? I was in the hospital. I was detoxing. I was on methadone and uh Chris Mullin and Liz Mullin,

Chris Herren1:14:35

Um

Chris Herren1:14:41

Yeah, yeah. He's the best and his wife is just as good, not better.

They made phone calls for me. Um and they kind of navigated the process of me going to treatment. Um but I just remember walking in there I was I was 32. Heather was pregnant. Samantha and Chris were 9 and 7 at the time. Um and I'm if I'm being honest like I didn't want to go.

Chris Herren1:15:11

But I didn't want to face my kids.

Chris Herren1:15:14

I was almost running away by going. You know, like yeah, I'll take treatment. I don't have to go home after the hospital and sit down with my kids and have this conversation with them. Yeah. So anyway, I um I signed up for this program, man, and it was life-changing, hard, um humbling, um you know, it was aggressive. Um it was something like I've never been through before. And I I was there for like 45 days and my wife was going to give birth. And here I am like the 45-day sober husband coming home.

You know, just for the birth. You know, I'm just going to go home, hold my wife's hand, kiss my kids, and I'm coming right back sober. And I didn't. Yeah.

Chris Herren1:15:59

I was home for a couple hours. I I made it for the birth. Um and I don't know why you drank vodka or drank alcohol. I I I did it to shut the noise off. You know, like I I didn't like the noise. You know, I didn't want to be me.

Chris Herren1:16:16

Um being me was unbelievably challenging and difficult. And I hated being me.

Chris Herren1:16:22

Um so I drank vodka because vodka's really nasty at at shutting the noise off. You know, it's good. And um I needed to shut the noise off. You know, I I could not you know, I just remember sitting in the hospital saying like I'm 32, I have three children, I have no job, I have no health insurance, I have no money. I'm on food stamps. I have no career and I have no education. I'm a bum and instead of facing that, I shut the noise off.

And let everybody down and and broke everybody's heart.

Chris Herren1:17:03

I get I had a chaperone. Um I mean you could have put 10 dudes on me.

Chris Herren1:17:13

There was a liquor store probably like three blocks away. And you know like this guy was he was a Shawn his name was. You know he was in the program. He was probably like six months sober.

Chris Herren1:17:24

And like when I came out of the room and said hey man I need to go for a walk. This was you know incredible. He was like of course. You know but I just walked right to the store. Um

Started drinking and and and then transitioned to shooting heroin that night. And then I went back to the hospital the next day and saw the devastation in my wife's eyes of you couldn't even do this for me.

Chris Herren1:17:52

Yeah yeah oh god yeah. Yeah cuz I disappeared. You know I mean I was in there with her and then I want then I wasn't and I disappeared.

Chris Herren1:18:01

They put me in a chair and made me sit against the wall nose to wall for like three and a half hours. And that was that was the the re-entry part and then they would tell me they're ready for to to s- to meet me. And you got to pick up the chair. You got to get up, turn, grab the legs, walk down a long hallway holding the chair, bang the door and they let you in. But for like five and a half hours they didn't let me in.

So they would send me back. So I'd have to turn around, go back and face the wall.

Chris Herren1:18:42

I had nowhere to go. I was scared. You know, I I didn't want to face anybody. And I I was almost hiding up in the hills of

Chris Herren1:18:49

The Adam M-

Chris Herren1:18:53

Yeah, and I and I and I I like to say like I think I really wanted to do it.

Chris Herren1:18:57

You know? But, I also knew that I was terrified at not being there.

Chris Herren1:19:04

Um So, long story short, they welcomed me back in the community and I and I did a few months there and it was like time to go. You know, it was time for me to get back to life, back to you know, around my family. So, I uh I transitioned to another center. I did 11 months in in treatment.

Chris Herren1:19:23

And it was the best 11 months I've ever done in my life.

Chris Herren1:19:27

Yeah. 11 months, I mean like I came out ready. I came out like

Chris Herren1:19:38

It was definitely the community, right? It was the people that I looked up to.

Chris Herren1:19:43

That I like listening to, that like listening to me.

Um

It was identifying with people that did the same stuff I did, you know, and not feeling so much shame in it. Um you know, being able to kind of laugh at ourselves a little bit, you know? I kind of did it the way it was supposed to be done. I I you know, I went in-patient, halfway house, sober house.

Chris Herren1:20:06

And um you know, I I I went to meetings. I became part of something special, part of something bigger than me. And had incredible discipline in in my recovery. And and I went I went after it. And you know, I say this all the time. I kind of equate it to basketball a little bit. Like I think of all the hours I did just shooting at a little orange rim.

Chris Herren1:20:29

You know, like my ass can't go to a meeting and make some phone calls to help and serve others, you know? So, you know, I put the work in to get to get where I'm at.

Chris Herren1:20:43

Reentry is not never easy, you know? Like they were okay without me.

Chris Herren1:20:50

No, because I never done it that way before, but I will say this it it you know, when I when people go to my center and people are saying like they got to get home to their kids, um which I understand, but there was a moment that I realized that my kids and my wife were going to be okay without me.

Chris Herren1:21:07

You know, that that my wife can function on her own. Um that was something I had to make peace with, you know? Um and I went to bed every single night in that treatment center saying like you are a scumbag. You're a loser. You have nothing to give. You have nothing to offer. You have zero future. And all you do is torture your family. And [clears throat] and um I flipped it, you know?

Chris Herren1:21:47

Like I was a good dad. Like I loved my kids.

Chris Herren1:21:50

You know what I mean? Like my wife will tell you like when I was on heroin like I was in the yard playing catch, playing basketball, running you know, just whatever. I would I did as crazy as this sounds if you if you can even say it like I did heroin so I can be with my kids.

Chris Herren1:22:08

You know what I mean?

Chris Herren1:22:09

When I went away for 11 months I never done that before.

Chris Herren1:22:12

But again, I think the hardest part about being away was coming to the realization that like I'm not that important in this mix. Like it can be done without me.

Chris Herren1:22:33

You know, I was doing just odd jobs. I was doing you know, clean outs, uh foreclosure homes. I was doing repo, repossessing vehicles. Um but I lost my license and I lost my ability I lost the right to drive, right? I had three OUIs. And it's hard to get to work when you can't have a car to go.

Yeah.

But I was in a meeting and this guy was sitting a couple of rows in front of me. He says, "Hey, listen, I'm a principal. I know a principal of a school right next to your home. I'm going to see if you can teach basketball there." And I had never taught basketball. So, he gave he opened the door for me and um I took it. I met with the principal. She handed me the keys, which was like incredible. You know, that I had the keys to this little Catholic private school in Portsmouth, Rhode Island and they were okay with me having them.

So, my first real job, you know, 50, 60, 70 hours a week was teaching kids how to play basketball.

Chris Herren1:23:32

After school, summer basketball camps. I was a trainer in a sense. Um and I loved it because I wanted to do I wanted to give a different spin, right? Like I can teach you how to be a psycho. You know what I mean?

Chris Herren1:23:44

But like I want you to feel good.

Chris Herren1:23:46

You know, and I was working out with kids who couldn't even reach the rim,

Chris Herren1:23:50

But like I wanted those kids to leave and be like, "That was fun."

Chris Herren1:23:54

You know, I didn't get one basket, but he's really good to me.

Chris Herren1:23:57

So, I fell in love with that and I did that for a couple of years and um started this little company called Hoop Dreams and and making money, supporting my family. Like it just felt so good.

Chris Herren1:24:07

It felt so good to go home like here.

Chris Herren1:24:10

But then a a woman saw an article in the Boston Globe that I had lost my license and trying to figure out life and uh she asked me to speak at her school. And I had never done a speaking event in my life and I walked into this building and I did a couple of couple of sessions. And um and that's when everything changed. I've been speaking ever since, you know.

Chris Herren1:24:40

You know, I think it happened the right way in my opinion. Like, you know, I started Herren Project 15 years ago. Um I want to be somebody's Chris Mullen.

Chris Herren1:24:49

Like I think that's really [ __ ] beautiful.

Chris Herren1:24:52

That Chris Mullen and Liz Mullen and their family, you know, like whatever I'm doing in recovery, like they gave me that.

Chris Herren1:25:01

Like like we helped that boy, you know? Like now he's a father, he's 50. He's been sober almost 20 years. Like they did that for me.

Chris Herren1:25:11

I wanted to do that for somebody. So I started Herren Project and we started 15 years ago and, you know, over the last 15 years we've given thousands and thousands and thousands of treatment scholarships. You know, we've served thousands of schools in prevention programs and education and we've intervened in thousands and thousands of lives with our counselors. I just wanted to be of service. You know, I think that's who I am I think I am who I am today because of service work.

Chris Herren1:25:45

Because I was 10 years sober. I was I was doing a lot of speaking and I had my foundation which I don't have any real connection to. Like I don't work for it. I don't make money from it.

Chris Herren1:25:56

It's completely separate. Um but yes, I was answering calls for people. Not me, but my staff.

Chris Herren1:26:05

But I wasn't witnessing it, you know? I wanted to witness it. So so I told my wife, one day I'm going to open up a treatment center. And I was 10 years sober and my wife and I was like, let's do it. So we took this incredible leap of faith and we bought this beautiful property and we had never done it before. And then I wanted to do it different.

Chris Herren1:26:30

Cuz I didn't because I wanted to do it different. So, like Herren Wellness first of all, and I'm not claiming that I was the first, right? But, like they're not patients, they're guest.

Chris Herren1:26:43

You know, like I started that 9 years ago. Like now treatment centers and else calling people guest.

Chris Herren1:26:48

Right? I've been calling them guest from day one. I wanted them to have dignity and respect. I wanted to have a trainer in the morning. I wanted you to get a massage, acupuncture, breath work, yoga, meditation. So, it was a it's a it has a very holistic vibe to it. You know, the the therapists are called life coaches. We have life coaches. I got some unbelievable people um that are phenomenal life coaches that work for me. We're not insurance-based, we're small, we're private, and incredibly proud of it.

Um you know, I was celebrating 17 years sober and I looked out in the room and there were hundreds of people sitting out there and on Zooms and and I knew everybody's name, man. You know, I knew everybody's name. And the thing about Herren Wellness is when my wife we started it, um it's not a business, it's a mission.

Chris Herren1:27:43

You know, I I say that like for real. You know, like this is a mission and you know, we've been incredibly blessed to have people say, "I trust you."

Chris Herren1:27:56

Like I'm sending you my son. Like that's big time, man.

Chris Herren1:28:00

A child. People send their child their children to You know what I mean? Like

Chris Herren1:28:06

What greater responsibility can one be given? And thousands of people have come from all over the country to to get into this model, you know, this holistic recovery model. And we've done tremendous work. So, you know, for me it's you get a front row seat to like real [ __ ]

Chris Herren1:28:34

You know, the beauty of it is see I that was I was conflicted on that when I when I was thinking about opening one. Um but I can shift them to my foundation.

Chris Herren1:28:47

And my foundation supports that.

Chris Herren1:28:49

You know, like we're going to help. My wife and I like, you know, although we're a private company, um millions and millions of dollars in scholarships over the last 8 years, you know, like that.

Chris Herren1:29:09

No, it's always a grind, right? This is not an easy thing space to get people to donate money to.

Chris Herren1:29:14

You know what I mean? Like it's not easy and I remember you know, I remember meeting with some real money and them like here's 500 bucks, you know, and I'm thinking maybe I'm going to get 150,000.

But like we're willing to give 500. We have incredible people who have been in connected to my foundation for the last 15 years and um we raise a ton of money through running. You know, like I as we talked about before, the Boston Marathon is a huge uh boost for our foundation. You know, my wife and I we ran it this year and, you know, we were able to raise almost a couple hundred thousand dollars and, you know, every step, you know, I knew

Chris Herren1:29:57

That that it was going to somebody.

Chris Herren1:30:00

It was going to change somebody's life.

Chris Herren1:30:07

Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Herren1:30:09

Yeah. And then we have just you know, there's a woman and I I I won't say her name, but like she every 2 weeks she sends like $6.50 of her check.

Chris Herren1:30:22

You know.

Chris Herren1:30:25

No, I've never met her. But like that's all she can afford, and that's what she sends. And it's like it's it's one of my favorite donations.

Chris Herren1:30:34

You know. So, again, 15 years doing this, thousands and thousands and thousands of people who have who have got involved with the foundation, um, has changed countless lives. You know.

Chris Herren1:30:46

So, Herren Project, Herren Wellness, is they're both, you know, my pride and joys.

Chris Herren1:30:59

I'm easy to find, you know. That's what I always say, too. Yeah. Yeah, I'm easy to find. Um, you know, obviously through social media outlets or just through websites, you know, there's Herren Project. If If we can be of any assistance in supporting you and a family who's doesn't have the resources, you know, you can circle back with us there. Um, you know, there's an incredible amount of real real amazing foundations that jump in that fight with you throughout this country, and we're one of them, and but if but, you know, if you're looking for that recovery side of it, and you want to get sober, like Herren Wellness and is my center, and you know, I'm there uh I'm not there today.

Chris Herren1:31:40

I'm with you. But I'll be there tomorrow, and I'll be there Friday, and I'll be there Monday, and I'll be there Tuesday. Like this My name's just not on this thing.

Chris Herren1:31:48

You know what I mean? Like I'm I'm I go to I go to the groups. I sit in the room. I share.

Chris Herren1:31:54

You know. So, it's it's it's it's cool.

Chris Herren1:31:59

They're great. You know, Christopher's, you know, they're were their 20s, you know, like they're getting older, they're working. Um you know, my youngest is 17, you know, he's getting ready to go to boarding school. Um but I've done a lot of work to see their eyes smile.

Chris Herren1:32:17

You know, like you know you got something, man.

Chris Herren1:32:20

Like I say that to the people when I shaved in front of the mirror and brushed my teeth for the first time, that was a moment for me. Like I always shaved and brushed my teeth in the shower.

Chris Herren1:32:30

Like I can't look at myself.

Chris Herren1:32:33

So, I remember being probably like 18 months sober and I'm like looking at myself and I'm like you know, what the [ __ ]

Chris Herren1:32:41

Um that was one of my moments, right? And then there was another moment when I looked into their eyes and their eyes were smiling at me. You know, not their mouth, their eyes.

Chris Herren1:32:55

And that's when you know how incredible incredibly valuable this gift is.

Chris Herren1:33:03

Because it makes the people who love you their eyes smile.

Chris Herren1:33:07

And it's hard for me because I got three incredible children and one has never seen me high.

Chris Herren1:33:14

Um the others have they grew up different. I see pictures and I know where I'm at and I know where they're at.

Chris Herren1:33:24

And it's hard. You know, I know that they look sad.

Chris Herren1:33:31

And they have like disappointment and fear running through their body. And to kind of swing that has been you know, my greatest my greatest accomplishment.

Chris Herren1:33:45

He is you know, my daughter's soccer, you know, I got to give her a shout out. She's my little beast.

Chris Herren1:33:52

She she never she never left my side. Um sadly, but she just seemed to always know when I wasn't doing good.

Mhm.

Drew is a hooper, you know, he is a football player. He did a little bit and Chris played college basketball and as I shared with you, went on to play wide receiver, walk-on to Alabama football.

Chris Herren1:34:14

Yeah. Yeah. So, they all have different relationships with sports.

Chris Herren1:34:18

Um, and it's I wish I was the parent I am today with the my two oldest when they were his age.

Chris Herren1:34:30

You know?

Chris Herren1:34:43

This is going to sound wild. Um, and there'll be people who will come draw their own conclusion on this. Uh, my son Drew, who's 17, I don't think he's seen me shoot a basketball more than five times in my life.

Chris Herren1:35:01

No.

Chris Herren1:35:03

I'm just not into it.

Chris Herren1:35:32

Yeah, you know, it's right [clears throat] now like they're kind of past that phase, you know, like it's almost work. You know, my son like he's Last week, he was in Texas, California, Vegas. He's just constantly You know, he gets no peace.

Chris Herren1:35:47

Were little, so So, my point is this, I taught my son, my oldest son, basketball.

Chris Herren1:35:54

And I'm not a good parent at teaching.

Chris Herren1:35:57

I'm a good parent to your kid.

Chris Herren1:36:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Herren1:36:22

And I did it with Christopher and I wish I didn't.

Chris Herren1:36:27

And I wish I could do it differently. Drew, I am with him every step of the way, but like I'll go play tennis. We'll go play pickleball.

Chris Herren1:36:40

You know, we'll jump in the pool. You know, we'll go grab something to eat. Like I'm just not going to shoot hoop. I just don't shoot hoop. So, I have a I have a tennis court, pickleball court, and a basketball court at my center. In my wellness center. And uh there's a boy there right now from from Oregon and he's like, come on, Chris, come shoot with me.

Chris Herren1:36:59

I looked him in the eye and I said, buddy, I've been here for the 9 years. I've never shot one shot in that basket.

And it's not going to start today with you.

Chris Herren1:37:08

That's crazy.

Yeah, yeah. So.

Chris Herren1:37:16

Oh, yeah. Listen, I would love to do it. I would I'm good at it with your kid. But I But thankfully, I can say I wasn't good at I'm not good at it with my own.

Chris Herren1:37:26

What you mean.

I will hype your kid up. I will get him like ready to climb a mountain.

Chris Herren1:37:33

My kids like my insanity is projected on them and my insecurities come out.

Chris Herren1:37:40

You know?

Chris Herren1:37:56

Yeah. And that's I've done a lot of work, man. You know, whether it's

Chris Herren1:38:01

EMDR, IFS, um incredible amount of trauma work in the last 3 years. And um and I thought going through that work like I was going to have a different

Chris Herren1:38:15

I was going to have a better relationship with it.

Chris Herren1:38:17

And I just still don't have a good relationship with it. I don't feel it hurts me, but it's almost like, you know, like in sobriety you learn to love from a distance.

Yeah.

Like I love it from a distance. I love it from the bleachers watching him play.

Chris Herren1:38:34

Oh, no, yeah. So, my son just played high school basketball for 3 years. I talked to his coach once.

Chris Herren1:38:44

Was never about basketball. Yeah, like I don't do that. I'm not into that. I just don't you're crazy. Right? Like you you bring someone into your craziness of how you get [ __ ] done.

Chris Herren1:38:56

You know, like to me that's not the it's a great part of me.

Chris Herren1:39:01

Like cuz I can I can go there.

Chris Herren1:39:03

I can become psycho.

Chris Herren1:39:05

You know what I mean? But like I don't want to.

Chris Herren1:39:11

It's not the best part of me that I want to show. You know what I mean?

Chris Herren1:39:55

Yeah, yeah.

Chris Herren1:40:13

In the world at it. Do you know what I mean? So, but to get your child to become the best in the world, like what what what what are we crazy? You know, like I'm not thinking my son's going to be an NBA basketball player. So, but I can treat him as one.

Chris Herren1:40:28

I can when [snorts] I get a when I get around it, my head goes there.

Chris Herren1:40:32

And I think it's just um I am a well-adjusted, you know, stable dad. But I'm also smart enough to know that I'm not a great one. I'm not the dad they need me to be around basketball.

Chris Herren1:40:47

So, I just stepped out.

Chris Herren1:40:58

Yeah, yeah.

Chris Herren1:41:11

Yeah.

Chris Herren1:41:21

Yeah.

Chris Herren1:41:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Herren1:42:01

In there.

Chris Herren1:42:03

Yeah, yeah, of course.

Chris Herren1:42:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Herren1:42:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No doubt. Listen, I I I don't think anybody has the perfect, [clears throat] you know, has figured it out.

Chris Herren1:42:29

I just know that um I love football. I love when my kid played football because I don't know much about it.

Chris Herren1:42:35

I never had the balls to do it. So, I'm just going to sit here and enjoy what he does.

Chris Herren1:42:40

You know? Now, the game of the basketball, I I know it.

Chris Herren1:42:43

I know the ins and outs of it, and I know what it takes, and I know the the battle, got mental, emotional battle you got to go through to get there. And I'm not willing to put my kids through that.

Chris Herren1:43:05

Yeah.

Chris Herren1:43:11

Mhm.

Chris Herren1:43:23

Mhm.